What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

heggiehogFri 22-Feb-13 23:02:37

I do not for a second believe, however, that reducing the holidays would lead to the work being more spread out. I simply think we'd end up teaching at the same pace for longer, as they use the expanded term times as an excuse to pack in more teaching, more paperwork, more marking, more assessments....

I agree, it would just make a tiring job even more tiring. As we are in the run up to the final exams when we return I will be running revision and booster classes most days, before schools, during lunch and after school. I will be teaching from 8am until 5:30 pm - non stop. That means that the time I use before and after school for planning will be shifted to after school. So I will be working 16 hours a day rather than 14. If school was open for more days I would be doing the same thing but just for longer.

At some point you have to say no, not least because schools need energetic experienced teachers , we cannot burn ourselves out.

Once again Arisbottle, flexibility is the key and should not be beyond the wit of man. If schools were open all year around it would be possible for some teachers to work according to your preference and some according to mine and it would be possible for some parents to make use of school all year around (which might include 6 weeks of leisure/sport/catch up) and some parents not to.

I'm not talking about extra days in school wihtout kids. I would like to see less teaching hours and more non contact hours each day in each week.

I think few teachers would argue with this.

"Schools aren't about maximised productivity or business hours though. They are about educating children in child friendly hours and about education only forming part of any day."

Oh, yes, THIS. Find it very frustrating when schools are compared to businesses. They cannot be compared.

MoreBetaFri 22-Feb-13 23:08:37

Also in a democratic society is it fair for a minority of people in one profession to have such a strangle hold on the working lives and well being of the majority.

How am I having such a stronghold over other people, I have said if that is what is best for children, go ahead but I will not be part of it.

Let's not forget we start kids in school one or two years younger than most westernized countries, as well as having up to seven weeks per year longer in school, AND pay about 1/3 less (allowing for currency exchange) and have bigger class sizes.

In the UK it really is a budget education, to try to squeeze more out of the system could be disastrous.

Hmm. I probably wouldn't mind some restructuring of term length and day length. As a parent I don't want my children just doing more of the same.

As a teacher I would enjoy more non contact and more weeks in school I think. However, many parents want consistency too. I'm trying to see how they would
have that if there was less contact time.

'Such wide spread change is almost impossible to bring about unless there is a huge swell of public support, and there just isn't. '

I think there is a huge amount of public support but so far no govt has been brave enough to take on teachers (who obviously have most to lose). Gove has suggested he would but no proposals yet.

But fivecandles that is almost what happens now in a lot of secondary schools. I know my school is open most days of the year, even over holidays and some members of staff go in to work.I go in for a day or two to update displays and tidy my room.

Some children come in for activities run by non teachers - and some teachers offer their services.

Nobody is comparing schools to businesses but people are saying it's time that schools reflected the changing needs of society and the children in it rather than be organised according to medievel harvesting.

goinnowhere, I would envisage more extra curricular activities built into the timetable or study sessions for individual appointments or small groups. THat would be enormously benefiical.

I gave the example of Wednesday afternoons (mayn private school still have this) for sport or extra curricular or catch up. Offering homework time or consolidating time in school with support would be of huge benefit to kdis from disadvantaged backgrounds or who are struggling academcially where they may not have an environment conducive to work at home.

Teachers are a relatively small % of the population. If the govt wanted to, they would go for it and push it through. But tax payers are a much more influential group, and they don't want to pay more tax, so how will the govt fund changes?

Having school buildings open with hardly any one in it is is a shocking waste of resources. That's the worst possible scenario.

I'm talking about full use being made of each school over the whole year - possibly staggered terms, possibly flexible hours, a variety of sumemr schools and holdiay clubs.

heggiehog - lets not forget the school year WAS designed around maximising agricultural productivity. It really was. I know this because I spent every single scholl holiday working on a farm and the long summer I spent every day bringing in the harvest.

I am sure that the economy would benefit and many families would benefit at the economic level too and as a by product many children would gain in their education and life chances too.

If we designed a school year for an agrarian economy then I am sure we can design one for our modern economy.

I also wonder if people could have flexibility on when they take their reduced holidays?

I think initially summer school and activities could happen relatively easily though. A combination of school and non school staff could operate. Would be subsidised automatically by using buildings making them cheaper to run.

Schools should be more aware of the need for good after school care too, at primary level. Again, not hard to do, but I know of schoola not even offering it in the same building, which seems wasteful.

The modern economy and business hours are not standardised though. There is no one-size-fits-all.

"Schools should be more aware of the need for good after school care too, at primary level. Again, not hard to do, but I know of schoola not even offering it in the same building, which seems wasteful."

That's not really up to schools though.

Again, schools getting the blame for things that are down to the government or the local council, LEA etc.

But all of these suggestions seem to assume that 'schools' can just supply extra childcare. Who will be the people doing it? Supervising homework etc? Why should taxes pay for those things when the children can be sent home and do those things without the tax payer coughing up?

Even getting over the practical problems doesn't answer that.

Obviously the whole school is not lit up like Blackpool illuminations all over the holiday. But the bits of school being used are open, staff just have to give the site staff advance notice so they can make sure the relevant bits are open.

The other side is other employers. I know so many people still, whose employers do not allow flexible working, even when they could, with no real problem. People who could work 8 til 4 quite easily, and be just as productive, and pick children up earlier. Resistance to change is not just in schools!

On the other hand I think I probably could last longer and have a better quality of life (and family life) if I worked less hours in each week but more weeks over the year. That also must be respected.

My HT/SMT/Ofsted would not require any less in the way of planning/marking/assessing/target setting/monitoring/changing displays/devising, planning and assessing intervention groups etc etc if I worked more weeks. Exactly the same 'outstanding' practice would be expected, so teachers would just be working more weeks at the same level they work at the rest of the year. It is naive to think otherwise.

Why did you switch to the private sector, Fivecandles?

I do get really fed up with schools being a catch all for every problem in society. I find myself shouting at breakfast TV every time someone comes on to talk about obesity/exercise/road safety/body image etc and says 'they should teach it in schools'. It just seems like a quick way to absolve the rest of society from responsibility for our children and dump it on schools.

Flexible childcare is an issue, but as has been stated above it is not just an issue for schools. Surely with the massive improvement in communications over the past fifteen or so years more people should be able to work from home for at least part of the week? Employers are living in the past expecting people to sit in an office from nine to five every day no matter what they're working on.

I'm intrigued by your idea, fivecandles and have often wondered myself if I would sacrifice holidays for a less intense working week. I find though that when year 11 leave in the summer I always think I'll have more free time, and yet my work seems to expand to fill the gap, and that would be the case here.

I agree with tiggytaoe's posts - particularly the one of 23:06 yesterday.

It seems that parents are too busy to have children- they need them in school earlier than 9am and they want them there until 6pm and they need them there in line with most firms holiday provision. In addition a lot of parents have chaotic lives and can't cope with them at all and so the state needs to care for them most of the time so that they are not disadvantaged. Schools are the obvious choice because the building is empty when they are not there and teachers have long holidays and so they could fill in a lot of the extra and they should be curing the ills of society and not be selfish enough to want to spend time with their own families?
Is this the gist- or am I misunderstanding?

Louisa even goes as far as to say that she gets pissed off with teachers saying they are not childminders and that schools get in the way of the excellent child care she had in place for her preschoolers!!!
Schools are not minding your child. They are educating your child- at a time that is suitable for the child to learn. If you need your child cared for then you need to do what teachers have to do and pay for child care.

Schools do need to change. The long holiday is not actually the harvest- it copies the public schools who need the long break to go off to their estates in the country. If it was the harvest they would stretch further into September and could start later.

If they are to have shorter holidays the prices will go up even higher at those times. The only sensible thing is to change from having one teacher per class and to team teaching so that pupils and teachers can take their holiday at any time- a bit of a nightmare catching up what is missed.
The school day could be changed if the terms were longer so that academic work was in the morning and you could have whole afternoons of sport- get our children fit. Afternoons could also be devoted to art, drama etc. you wouldn't have one teacher per class doing it all. Modern language teachers could go to several schools, music teachers could do several schools - all sorts of specialists could do several schools. Teachers could have reduced hours and time off in the week when they were not involved. Students could be employed in their breaks (and they could have short ones and do a degree in 2years) and they could be play leaders.

I could go on and on. Basically change would be welcome, but with an entire overhaul - if it is just teachers doing extra hours and weeks to suit working parents and the feckless parents in our society then they will leave- it is too much.
If people want universal, free child care then the tax payer has to fund it. Many who are childless will take the view that if you have children then you should pay for the childcare yourself.

The government does waste money in my view, but it doesn't work that if they didn't it would go to education. You can't expect good quality childcare from underpaid, overworked, undervalued people.

With my system parents could of course take their child out at different times and not have the long day. I don't want mine there all hours and I love unstructured holiday times with nothing to do. As a child I loved the prospect of time to do nothing for weeks on end!

And once you get past childhood you never get it again- except possibly old age when you are too frail to enjoy it.