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Changes to 11-plus to stop middle-class parents 'buying' access to grammars by hiring tutors

999 replies

breadandbutterfly · 01/12/2012 21:48

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241411/Changes-11-plus-stop-parents-buying-access-selective-schools-hiring-tutors-children.html

Similar article in the Times apparently but paywall.

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TheOriginalSteamingNit · 03/12/2012 09:55

So there could be working class children who are like your son?

Ronaldo · 03/12/2012 09:56

I am not saying there arent.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 03/12/2012 09:57

No, sorry to disillusion you, petal, but it remains the case that my girls have not been taught by anyone with whose intellect and teaching skills I have a problem. I didn't say teaching was 'full of the brightest and best' (witness..... no, I shan't). But I can say that my girls haven't been taught by anyone dreadful, or useless or stupid.

They are also, in the vast majority, much younger than the teachers to whom you are referring.

JugglingWithPossibilities · 03/12/2012 09:57

Although I'm happy to admit I really want my DC's to go to schools with other children who want to learn, and who respect their teachers.
Fortunately I feel I've been able to find/achieve this for my DC's.

piggywigwig · 03/12/2012 09:57

seeker
"In most cases, tutoring for the 11+ is not about teaching children something useful. It is about teaching specific skills which apply to this particular type of test only. If you want to get 100% innthe maths, there will be topics that will probably not have been covered by the time a child sits the test, but apart from that it's just teaching them how to jump through the hoops very fast indeed."

Day-to-day life often involves time-management, prioritising and sorting the wheat from the chaff and trying to focus on the most relevant/important bits. I know many of us have had to use these types of skills in the workplace and are appraised on our abilities to do so in an effective and efficient manner Wink Targets...working to tight deadlines..they're everywhere these days!

So...even if a child does a VR/NVR paper only for the 11+, where some may argue that the skills learned have no useful purpose in life, could you please kindly explain why you feel that the time-management skills they've acquired from tutoring, in order to do this exam, aren't useful throughout the time they're doing exams in school/college/university?

Ronaldo · 03/12/2012 10:00

No OSN I didnt mention my middle classness as such. I mentioned it in a context of what I considered to be cultural factorsamongst others. It was picked up and exaggerated on by MNers who have axes to grind.

piggywigwig · 03/12/2012 10:00

oops! the last line should read....

"...aren't useful throughout the time they're doing exams in school/college/university..or in general life-terms?

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 03/12/2012 10:03

Gosh, I must be thinking of someone else. So you don't see RP as a particularly class-related issue, then?

Ronaldo · 03/12/2012 10:04

O wouldnt get too cocky because the teachers are younger OSN. Ive seen some worse examples amongst the younger.

Ronaldo · 03/12/2012 10:05

No, I do not see RP as class related. Its about being able to speak good English. That can be anyone in any social or cultural group. Many of our overeas pupils speak RP

Brycie · 03/12/2012 10:06

Asinine: in london they charge up to fifty pounds an hour Shock

You can do a lot yourself. Get hold of old papers and assess the level. Do you have a good understanding of them and can you do them yourself with ease?

Then have a go at teaching your child, set up a proper defined "hour" as you would with a tutor, buy a Dairy Milk for the child for when it's over and get stuck in.

That way you can minimise the sessions you need on, as piggywigs, exam technique, time management, tricks of the trade and so on.

Brycie · 03/12/2012 10:07

I think Ronaldo might be like me - don't care background, race, creed - but must have intelligence, commitment to learn, focus, enthusiasm.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 03/12/2012 10:09

Oh for heaven's sake, if your argument is just going to be that sooner or later I'll encounter a dreadful teacher whether I know it or not, I think it's getting a bit silly.

I'm not 'cocky' about the fact that I don't have issues with the teaching they're receiving: it's just a fact, and I'd appreciate it if you would stop telling me it isn't.

Ronaldo · 03/12/2012 10:22

Although I'm happy to admit I really want my DC's to go to schools with other children who want to learn, and who respect their teachers

That is pretty much what I wouldlike to see in all schools. However, I would replace respect ( which I think can be optional) with good discipline and compliance on the part of DC

breadandbutterfly · 03/12/2012 10:23

Would agree with Brycie and disagree with seeker that tutoring for the 11+ comprises 'nothing useful'.

I tutored my own dd and it was ioncredibly useful - probably the most fundamentally 'useful' education she will ever receive, bar basic learning to read and write, potty training etc. Most of my time was spent on covering maths topics that she would not cover at her state primary until several months after the test. This was not uniquely useful - she woud have done it anyway, just a few months later.

But what was incrediobly important was the work I did on improving her accuracy, introducing an essential element of self-doubt of one's own first conclusions, so that she developed skills at checking and proofreading, also demonstrating how to plan time management and a study programme effectively and painlessly, how to set study (and other) goals and work towards achieving them, rather than giving up at the first hurdle. Plus of course, how to sit exams and just accept that all you could do is your best on the day, and not to stress about it. So really basic, crucial study, exam and time management skills. But not things she had ever been taught at primary - she could stay top of the class effortlessly with no work so had never needed to actually bother to try to achieve her best. It took weeks to get through the arrogance of being a big fish in a very small pool - but it was and is vital that she learnt how to measure herself against her own abilities rather than always going for the easy option of the least work required. She has been much happier since - arrogance is not really a happy place to be - and needless to say, it did of course feed into her SATs scores and work since.

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Brycie · 03/12/2012 10:23

Yes I agree with that, I'd withdraw intelligence but say respectful, keen to learn, bright enough to understand the importance of learning.

Brycie · 03/12/2012 10:24

I was talking about Rnoaldo before and now I agree with butterfly Smile

Ronaldo · 03/12/2012 10:24

I think Ronaldo might be like me - don't care background, race, creed - but must have intelligence, commitment to learn, focus, enthusiasm

That might reasonably sum mostof it up.

breadandbutterfly · 03/12/2012 10:26

NB Could this pleeeeeease not turn into another day of analysis of Ronaldo's Unusual views on class, education etc? I thought we'd got over that, and he has been trying to stick to the topic, so please leave him alone and stop prodding...

Thanks
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breadandbutterfly · 03/12/2012 10:30

@TOSM. (my last post)

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bowerbird · 03/12/2012 10:36

Bread your programme sounds great and that's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to do with my DD. Could I ask you when you started?

breadandbutterfly · 03/12/2012 10:37

Should also add that the most useful bit of tutoring I did with my dd - as described above - required no extra materials, no cost and any parent could do it - and better than any tutor could. So whilst there is an issue over children from homes with parents who care about education getting an advantage over those from homes without, it is definitely not a financial issue.

I'm loathe to even hint at agreeing ith Ronaldo - and unlike him, I think there are numerous very poor schools (in educational terms) in the private sector - but I do feel that in the drive to enable children who are struggling to catch up, which is all well and good, the needs of children who are not struggling but finding it too easy, has sometimes been ignored in the state sector. This is part of the reason that I feel grammas still have an important role to play within our educational system.

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TheOriginalSteamingNit · 03/12/2012 10:39

yes, fair enough - I did feel for you yesterday (breadand) with the way it all got taken over, but I think today I've gone and got a bit sucked in despite myself.

Is it off topic to say that my childrens' teachers aren't old or stupid (or young and stupid), though, whatever anyone keeps trying to tell me? And then to leave it?

breadandbutterfly · 03/12/2012 10:45

Hi bowerbird - I started in May of year 5 (her exam was in Nov of year 6). So about 5 months. It was v worth it - we found it a v bonding experience (and my dd is not an easy pupil - she's been a 'teenager' in attitude since she was about 3 - we came across the phrae 'threenager' then which perfectly described her! so don't worry that this approach is impossible unless you have a perfectly compliant child! But I would stress it was her choice - she chose her first coice of school and therefore was happy to spend time to improve her chances. I feel sorry for kids forced against their own wishes to work for sometimes hours per week or even per day! to get into a school they don't even wish to attend. Not surprisingly, dcs in that scenario lack motivation and I would imagine that tutoring them is a thankless task. )

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breadandbutterfly · 03/12/2012 10:46

TOSM - of course. :)

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