Changes to 11-plus to stop middle-class parents 'buying' access to grammars by hiring tutors

[breadandbutterfly]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241411/Changes-11-plus-stop-parents-buying-access-selective-schools-hiring-tutors-children.html

Similar article in the Times apparently but paywall.

That may be so: and yes I agree there is something positive about that.

But if knowing the DT expert is a nice guy means that a truly academic child gets a less academic education then the benefit of knowing that - which they could find out anyway - is not there.

I fear for the knowledge economy of the UK and I think we need an elite, and we need to give the elite everything it needs. But expectations shouldn't be lower for everyone else: teaching standards should be the same, the opportunities offered for academic achievement should be the same at non GS schools.

As I say I have two children who could be part of that elite, and I have one child who definitely won't be. And of the children who could be - they may choose otherwise, who knows? they are banned from becoming bankers And might neither of them be in the elite. But we need a knowledge elite, very much so.

However, you probably don't know this, but I also argue very very strongly for improvements in primary education for all. I think the way to get rid of tutoring is not to ban it, but to make it unnecessary by improving state primary education for every child and not just those fortunate enough to have willing and engaged parents.

But when the comp system works properly, every child gets an education attuned to his or her individual needs - academic, vocational etc. It's not a question of denying anyone something, it's a question of providing a system which meets every child's needs. And this can be done, I see it in my children's SM (not comp, as GS area).

And I do think there is an awful lot to be said for "non-bubble" education - ooh, I've probably coined a new edu-speak word there!!

I totally agree with you about improvements in primary education btw - just got home from gov meeting tonight where we talked about the work our school does with local primary hub. It is a crying shame that children arrive at secondary school with a reading level that does not allow them to access the secondary curriculum (as was the case with the my oldest, she's dyslexic, but they brought her reading levels up in a couple of months).

It's not just a case of knowing the DT is a nice guy though, it's a case of understanding that the DT guy has a real talent which is valuable to our society, and maybe even more valuable than the maths geek's.... or they could both work together on something amazing, and bring BOTH their talents to bear while respecting each other's strengths and weaknesses. IMO, and also experience, many GS students do take a rather arrogant approach to those who are not at GS.

Good conversation, got to go to bed now though!!!

We don't need 'watertight reasons for dismantling grammar schools' - from this thread it seems to have escaped people's notice that there are only 164 left in the country! This is a very small percentage! The majority of the population doesn't have to worry about the exam and the majority of the population are never going to have to narrow their DCs options at a ridiculously young age. They will not return - parents only want them if their DC gets a place and seeing as over 75% won't get a place the majority won't want them back.

Where we are some of the schools are partially selective. 25% to 30% are admitted based on the 11+ with the remainder based on proximity.

Unfortunately we aren't in the catchment but, at least for people that are, there is something for everybody.

boschy

A lot of people have complained about being educated alongside disruptive pupils and their children's education being affected as a result. Why should only grammar school children escape this. I do agree with this point - I agree that everyone should be able to escape this. I see this though as more of a discipline and ethos issue than a grammar issue.

"Why should only grammar school children escape this. I do agree with this point - I agree that everyone should be able to escape this. I see this though as more of a discipline and ethos issue than a grammar issue."

I bet if everyone could escape this, in every school, there wouldn't be nearly as much parental angst over which school to send their kids to.

@boschy - I agree that everything would be great if the comp system worked properly but there are large swaths in this country where it doesn't.

Saying to parents that they can't leave the comp system because their pushy-ness is required to fix these problems and their bright DCs are required to present positive role models and so your DC doesn't feel a failure is not, IMO, an acceptable reason for locking in that parent.

I'm lucky in that the comps in my area are good (although not pushy enough IMO :) ) and, even if it wasn't, I have the money to go private. So I really feel for those parents locked into a crap comp with no way out because the people in power regard selective education as being inequitable while sending their kids elsewhere.

Shouldn't the discussion be about how to improve the comps that aren't working as opposed to pursuing a strategy of getting everybody to share the pain?

But Brycie thinks that the 75% who don't pass should get exactly the same, all the same lessons and opportunities and ethos and everything..... so what's the difference, and how would that work.

In a comprehensive as opposed to a sec mod, those who wouldn't have passed are, I would think, much less likely to truant or misbehave, because they haven't already been told that they're not as good.

My 'personal belief', borne out by experience of having children in a comprehensive school is that they are not damaged by being in the same building as those who wouldn't have passed a test at 11.

"Why should only grammar school children escape this. I do agree with this point - I agree that everyone should be able to escape this. I see this though as more of a discipline and ethos issue than a grammar issue."

I shall never understand this. So where are the pupils from whom other dcs are escaping? You can't argue that everyone should be educated together, and children from unhelpful backgrounds are being penalised, and then say that there should presumably be a whole swathe of people who must be avoided because they are disruptive.

It's the same argument that gets trotted out ad infinitum here about how all schools should be "good" schools. Again, so where in this are the pupils who are clearly going to muck up these ideal schools? With the best will, ethos,teachers, what have you - you are going to get children who are not academic and hate the confines of school, who will always struggle, who don't engage.

As far as I can see, it's usually the people who don't this 'everyone should be educated together' who say that there are 'a whole swathe of people who must be avoided because they are disruptive'.

don't think, not don't 'this' - sorry!

#Well in a way Letty you have a point and certainly it's a very interesting problem. It's just that often people who think they are against selection are actually in favour of selection - they just want the bar lowered to children who are a degree more disruptive than their own and slow down the pace of their own. I think what we do with disruptive pupils is an interesting issue.

LeQueen said: And, I agree with Brycie in that we need to foster and encourage an academic elite..else the UK is going to drown in the face of competition from Asia for jobs, industry etc.

I think she's right. Resources are going to become increasingly limited and funding scarce. We are not going to change the ethos in the UK. In my lifetime I can't see the majority thinking 'it's cool to be smart'. In the light of this we can't really afford to screw up the education of this group and need to redouble our efforts to make sure they develop as much as possible.

In parts of Asia they'd have university fees paid etc but the deal would be they'd have to work for the state for a period of time & all would benefit from their expertise.

I'd like all to fly as high as they can but sadly I think severe lack of funds will make this impossible for most in time.

Competition for Grammars is increasing. Take Tiffin - the pass rate seems to be down at state primary schools. They have an open catchment area and they only take the best of the best.

We DO have an academic elite. Haven't you read the report about people in top jobs and where they were educated? :)

"Where we are some of the schools are partially selective. 25% to 30% are admitted based on the 11+ with the remainder based on proximity.

Unfortunately we aren't in the catchment but, at least for people that are, there is something for everybody."

So, this is a school where 25% are selected on academic ability. Presumably thaws children populate the top sets? And the other 75% of the school population is mixed ability- ranging from top set and nearly top set all the way down? And they are all in the same building?

And this is the school you would like to be in the catchment area for, AMPF?

Thinking outside the box here but what about keeping the Sec Mod / GS model but lowering the pass mark for the 11+?

Many of your kids will be at a GS while the disruptive, uninterested kids that everyone wants to avoid will be in a different building.

I reserve the right, if I get seriously hammered for saying the above, to say that I was just joking.

@seeker - What are your objections apart from the fact that its not 100% non selective?

I think fear actually drives a lot of those parents who are desperate to get their child into GS, so they can be 'protected' from these gangs of feral teenagers who apparently run rampage through every non-selective school in the country.

Because clearly if you are not 11+ material you are a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal who likes nothing better than beating up a geek before breakfast and then going to score behind the bike shed before chucking a chair at the maths teacher and making the lives of the nice but dim kids a misery.

Where's the tongue in cheek emoticon when you want one

I was just worried about the selected 25%, AMPF- how on earth do they cope in the same building as the non selected 75%...........?

Do Grammar schools usually attract the best teachers? It's a difficult question but perhaps one that we can ask. Do the best schools look for better academic qualifications (in the first instance) compared to secondary modern or equivalent schools? I know that you need a first for some of the best private schools in your specialist subject AND to be an amazing and inspiring character. I think my education was severely hampered by uninspiring and poorly educated teachers.

I watched a documentary about Eton recently - ok that's an extreme - but it was interesting to see how articulate the teachers were. The turn of phrase, how they used language, all of it was incredibly inspiring and made me wish I'd come across that level of excellence in my own school career.

There will be some incredible teachers who want to go and work in schools that have children who have difficult lives who genuinely want to make a difference but how many? Isn't the elephant in the room the fact that many are going to try to get a job at the 'best' school they can? The school with the great reputation that offers amazing career progression etc?

I don't know about others but I want my children to be educated by incredible, highly intelligent, dedicated & inspiring teachers who want to sow the seeds so young minds can really blossom. This is true whether they turn out to be academic or not.

from what my kids tell me i think that both grammar and comps have a mix of good and bad teachers. i know that the grammar school i went to had some appalling ones.

Hamish- it's an interesting question, and one which I suspect could never really be answered as "best" is so subjective. The grammar teacher I was at a meeting with yesterday would certainly say yes. She said in the meeting that it's practically impossible to be judged outstanding at her school because the standards are so high Not sure that's how OFSTED works tbh. Interestingly (we were discussing assessment levels in our subject (drama) which is not NC so criteria isn't published in the same way that it is for Maths, say) my Level 8 expectations were the same as her Level 7 expectations- certainly that suggests my expectations of top end yr 9 students are higher than hers. Mine is not a grammar. I think that different teachers suit different schools. I would not want to teach in a grammar, but I do have a 2.1 from Warwick, a string of A grades at A Level and GCSE and am arguably one of the "brightest and best" that Gove etc like to talk about.