Should teachers have to take tougher tests before they qualify?

[Solopower1]

What do you think?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20083249

sorry 1980 / 1990's - PC still Keyboard still running together.

I'm sure you would be most unhappy if someone made a similar comment about your teaching jabed because it would be unfair to judge something we have no experience of, so perhaps you can see how silly your post makes you

Re plate glass- I suspectit was a pre war vs post war divide between the universities. The newer ones when I was a lad being the post war charters like Exeter and Keele.

mrz - people here have always been very quick to judge my teaching. Have I taken offence? I amnot supposed to take offence I suppose? I wonder why?

( is is 'cos I is a man? :))

I didnt judge the teaching. I just it was a shame she had found herslf unable to teach in aprivate school despite her good discipline record in state schools. You read the rest in yourself.

I have absolutely no vested interest in Exeter either ron, it's just that you do seem to like to possess a monopoly of knowledge about certain facts purely on the grounds of your age. Your presence on this earth in the 1970's doesn't in itself make you all-knowing about things which went on in that era. My elder sister graduated in 1976 too (from Durham, not Exeter) and had attended a highly academic London school, where it was definitely the case that Exeter was up near the top, in terms of pecking. It slumped after that, no doubt partly related to the advent of Sloanes. I doubt many kids from your secondary modern applied through UCCA, so you may not be quite as clued up.

You are a parent, true, though not a hugely experienced one, since your only DC is aged 6. There's every possiblity that he may go wild, rebel vigorously against a suffocating prescription of what he's expected to be and disrupt class after class after class. I've found I never know what's about to come round the corner with my own DC: be prepared!

You said " shame about the teaching " how is that not a judgement.

The state sector is full of teachers with excellent records who have no desire to teach in the independent sector.

"I didnt judge the teaching. I just it was a shame she had found herslf unable to teach in aprivate school despite her good discipline record in state schools. You read the rest in yourself. "

Jabed, you misread.

Yuko said that she TAUGHT in a state school, and that there was no disruption in her lessons. However she was a PUPIL in a private school, where there was disruption.

There is no indication whatever that she has ever taught in a private school.

Tbh, in my experience disruption in lessons is much more a function of the teacher than it is of the type of school. In the [very academic, private] secondary I attended, behaviour was generally very good except when the class was taught by a poor teacher. I think it is horsemadmum who has said the same about somewhere like NLCS - that a poor teacher had her lessons continually disrupted. Equally in the school I teach in - very, very mixed - behaviour - and progress in learning - is extremely good except for 1 half term where we had a less good teacher teaching in a temporary position.

It's like the daft comment about bullies further up the thread - teachers with poor teaching will have disrupted classes in all schools, just as all schools have bullies.

I doubt many kids from your secondary modern applied through UCCA, so you may not be quite as clued up

My SM did not have a sixth form. In fact only 7 stayed on the fifth form which was still optional when I was 15/16. RoSLA ( thats raising of the school leaving age) to 16 didnt happen until well afterI left. The schol then closed down as it happens, amalgamated with another school to make a comprehensive . The poor grammar school suffered for that but I digress about how it was then.

I was by then in a top school ( having shown the local grammar I had so coveted all my earlier life a big boot!) The most academic pupils in the area went to sixth form in my sixth form and all of us applied through UCCA. Half of us were Oxbridge candidates and a large number got in. Oxford was always more popular that Cambridge. I am not saying I am all knowldegeable but I was there. I am not talking from history or books about this.

I would not disrespect your experience yellowtip, why do you feel the need to try and correct mine?

You are a parent, true, though not a hugely experienced one, since your only DC is aged 6. There's every possiblity that he may go wild, rebel vigorously against a suffocating prescription of what he's expected to be and disrupt class after class after class. I've found I never know what's about to come round the corner with my own DC: be prepared!

There is an equal (possibly greater) possibility he will not.

You seem to have an unusual idea of my parenting. I dont know where it is coming from. I may only have one DC but I have had thousands through my hands in a lifetime of teaching ( Sorry about the Mr Chips thing again) .

There are factors which lead to "wild child" behaviour just as there are factors whjich lead to disruptive pupils in school. They are mostly home factors. My DS is in a low risk category on those scores, despite what you think.

I work on probabilites. It seems to me you just want my DS to turn out a wrong un so you can say "I told you so". You may have to wait a long time to see if you are right - maybe even a time after MN isnt here.

So let it go. I dont tell you how to bring your DC up or that I think they will be rubbish in their lives do I?

Yuko said that she TAUGHT in a state school, and that there was no disruption in her lessons. However she was a PUPIL in a private school, where there was disruption

I know what she said. .

It's like the daft comment about bullies further up the thread - teachers with poor teaching will have disrupted classes in all schools, just as all schools have bullies

No I didnt.I expressed surprise that a bully had managed to get intoa grammar school.

Why would a bully struggle to get into the grammar? One of my children was bullied at the grammar, I rather foolishly sent him to the grammar thinking that he may fit in better and therefore would not be bullied . Our grammars for girls are notorious for bullying.

teacherwith2kids, read what I actually said will you?

Since you didn't misread, jabed, I am genuinely puzzled as to what you mean by 'shame about the teaching'. What evidence do you have that in Yuko's state school the teaching is not universally excellent? In fact, what evidence do you have about ANY teaching in TODAY's state secondaries (I know that IN THE DISTANT PAST you have worked in some poor state schools - but what evidence do you have about today's schools in general, and Yuko's in particular)?

Ronaldo I am not re-writing history, I just know more about it than you. Exeter got an individual charter in 1955. Before that it was a college of London (since the 20s). The plate glass unis were established after the Robbins report in 1963 and they were east anglia, Essex, Kent, York, Sussex, Warwick. Like you(?) I went to Cambridge, I didn't apply to Exeter because it never had a good rep for maths, but unlike you I have close family members and friends who are or have been academics at Exeter and I've been a guest lecturer there myself.

Yes, what on earth could you have meant, if you didn't misread and you know she has never tried to teach in a private school, when you said it was a shame she found herself unable to teach in a private school?

You said that you felt that a bully was unfit for a grammar school education. Since the test for grammar school entry is based on an 11+ exam which does not have the question 'are you, or could you become, a bully?' I am unsure about how you feel that bullies are magically excluded from such schools, in the same way as bullies are present in all private schools. In all good schools of all types, the baheviour of bullies is managed and modified, but it does not mean that they are not present.

(I teach in state schools because, frankly, the standard of teaching in all my local private schools appalls me and I refuse to be part of such a boring, old-fashined, rigid educational atmosphere... but I emphasise that that is true of my local area and not necessarily true of others)

Ron further to my last post - the label 'plate glass' referred to the clutch of post Robbins report (1963) new build universities and it was a comment on, surprise surprise, their architecture. Exeter was more typically (and perhaps rightly) lumped in with the redbricks, starting life as a college of London as many of them did, but a bit later than the rest and in a less metropolitan setting. And not being made of plate glass.

But I do agree with you that while it has had different levels of reputation in the past and now for some subjects (it's been one of the top top places for business, economics, accountancy for at least 25 years - and I do mean top top places) it has never had a good rep for maths. Or science generally I think.

(Apologies, I should also clarify that I mean 'private primary schools, because that is the age range I teach. I wouldn't want to teach in the local private secondaries because...well, they aren't very good, getting less good results than the local 'secondary modern' comprehensive, let alone the superselective grammars)

Both the schools my older two kids attend (one grammar, one comp) seem to deal with the (very small) number of disruptive and bullying kids I've been aware of rather effectively. Without permanent exclusion AFAIA.

'shame about the teaching'

There were three separate sentences there. Three statements. Responses to what was said in the quote I ran at the top.

I meant exactly what I said. Shame about the teaching.

Mordion, after all, the same is true of very ancient foundations - Oxford, for example, was for very many years NOT the place to go to study engineering, despite the 'general' academic excellence for other subjects.

No jabed that is not what you said ... a reminder of what you did say
"Good behaviour manager then?In a stateschool. Shame about the teaching." nothing about teaching in a private school

You said " shame about the teaching " how is that not a judgement

It was a response to what the poster had written.

Shame about WHAT teaching, jabed? Yuko's? (About which you know nothing). The state school in which she teaches? (About which you know nothing) The state sector in general? (About which you have some outdated knowledge from, by your own admission, a selection of 'tough' schools in the distant past)