How exactly do you know that your DC should go to grammar school?

[plus3]

Sorry for the ridiculous question, but I am going slightly bonkers.

DS is in yr 4 and has unspecified learning difficulties - mainly with attention and processing instructions. He is bright & remembers incredibly well. Literacy & science are his favourite subjects, and thinks he struggles with Maths but is actually above average. He craves structure and routine

My problem is that I am aware of some children in his class already doing extra work out of school (such as explore & kumon etc) and I now feel like I am letting him down hugely.

Should we be jumping on the treadmill of extra work etc to give him an even playing field? I don't really believe in excesses coaching to pass the 11+

So how do we tell if Grammer could be the place for him? When I have spoken to school, they always imply that academically he will be fine (whatever that means)

Sorry if this long & rambling, it all seems so very competitive around here (Bucks) thanks.

This is why the 11+ should be compulsory, although of course it hold not be compulsory to have to take up a place.

I think it's ridiculous to say "you just know if your child is grammar material" because in truth the bottom third/half (if you factor in tutoring) of the grammar school is likely very similar to the top tranche at the non selective.

The majority of the pupils at Dd1s SS were not tutored. But it would seem its a pretty unique school in other ways so maybe it's unique in that respect too.

LaQueen I think you should rest easy at night; your DD will be far from alone.

In fact DD2 (another arty one) took the ditzy thing to an unprecedented level in the school by forgetting to turn up for an AS, so she ended up with one missing. She then trumped that by muddling dates for a crucial university aptitude test and now there has frequently turned up to the wrong thing and failed to turn up when she should - but they seem to indulge her. By no means all grammar school kids go for burn out and those who do are by no means always the brightest. I bet your DD will be absolutely fine.

jabed it can be very difficult for those trying to assess their first DC, particularly when a lot of primary schools don't push the 11+ for political reasons. I was completely unsure about where on the spectrum my first DC was. You've been a teacher for years - slightly different.

Mordion
trust me, I know the difference between my DCs comp and those in other areas - DH works at schools where Cn isa term of affection for teachers, at least once a term.

my problem with the whole "comp" thing is that the London 'market' has become so distorted - and that is where politicians send their kids to school - that it misrepresents the rest of the UK.

once you get a borough like Ealing with 43% private, state schools are no longer in a position to offer a balanced education.

My underlying point is - and trust me my kids would be hit harder than most

• state funded schools should ALL go back to distance catchments

-: No religion -: no selection -: none of that crap and the catchment boundary will flex each year till the school is full without sibling weighting (to reduce carbon footprint) {none of that junk about renting for a year and then getting Jemima, Tarqin and Felicity in}

Yes, schools will differ depending on their catchment.
No shit sherlock, they do already , under the hugely expensive and complicated current system.
But kids will not drive past one school to get to another (unless their parents are paying for the pleasure)

For those who know, If I applied this to my kids (before they got into their current school) - they would be at one of the worst schools in the country :
BUT so would 500 of their friends - magically making it no longer a crap school, just a school with a few issues
so in the long term they would probably get similar results and we'd all save loads in travel time and gain in local friends ....

Disagree with jabed that parents just 'know' - I had a fairly good idea that my dd would be fine, because I was top of my v good grammar school and she was better than me overall - but if I hadn't been to grammar myself in this country, i don't know how i could have made that judgement (she is now at the top of her grammar, too so I was not wrong). But even with that to go on, it was just a got feeling =- I should add that I'm also a teacher but even then I wasn't sure - I think it would be a very arrogant parent who would be 100% sure - entrance exams are imperfect things.

I'd also massively disagree with jabed that you need a tutor to get in - some practice is important but nothing that a normmally bright parent can't do with a feww books from WHSMiths - and I have the stroppiest dd but it worked beautifully and was actually v v good for our relationship - v glad I didn't waste money on a tutor.

I think there is not much point in second-guessing the exam - if your dc is bright enough to be at a grammar they will probably get in - if in doubt they can do a few exams eg for distant superelectives and if they fluff all of them then you can figure out they're probably not grammar school material. If they get in then they are.

Obviously that doesn't mean they would necessarily be happiest at a grammar - go and visit some schools to see - not all grammars are the same. Some are pushier than sthers, some have bullying or peer pressure and some don't spome are strong on art or music or sport and some not, single-sex will suit some dcs and not others etc.

La Queen - what does your dd want to do? We visited 9 schools and my dd chose her school because she wanted to go somewhere 'hard' and really wanted the intellectual challenge - is it your dd who wants to go to an academic school or is it you for social reasons? I think her views should play a big part if not the biggest in whether a grammar school is 'right' for her.

Reading this thread, I might just add, grammar school isnt a place I would want my DS to go to these days. That despite he would be in the top percentile of entrants.

Its clearly not what it used to be. :)

jabed
grammar schools are an irrelevance.

There are only 134 of them, the vast bulk in two backwater counties
and the modus operandi is great for liberal arts or PPE type students
(a swimming buddy is delighted with what they are getting out of her son, but agrees that it would be pointless for my DCs)
but not relevant to what is to come in 15 years.
Older generation politicians seem to think that the GS / SM / TC system is as they remember it
but led by Michael (anything but evidence) Gove
they are heading up a backwater - taking many blindly ambitious parents with them.

Good oh, leaves space for the astute who graduated from comps ....

Talkin - not sure why you are trying to create a confrontation between those from comps and gss?

bread
its not a personal thing
its the fact that among the psychopaths who stand for Westminster office, grammar school boys (and they are mostly boys) are disproportionately represented
and they set policy based on their experience of "state schooling"
and they are incorrect becuase what they have seen is utterly unrepresentative.

see the article in the grauniad
Michael Gove is really nice
BUT he does not change his mind

sorry, but the basis of scientific intelligence is the willingness to change your mind based on the evidence
and we are being governed by people who were not taught that
SCARY

Talkin what a load of rubbish about liberal arts and PPE. The grammar I have most experience of regularly turns out large numbers of scientists and medics taking up places at Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial etc and tends to excel in Olympiads. I don't recognise any of what you say.

jabed your DS is very young still isn't he? He might peak, so perhaps don't count your chickens (I speak from experience, having peaked probably at age 7, arguably at 11, yet I was evidently a completely brilliant child (not that anyone bothered to tell me at the time, in case it pissed off my brother and sister)).

Yellowtip
you have experience of one school in one town.
As DHs PA I have experience of hundreds of schools in every county in England.
Yours is the distorted view
Find me the PPE politician who did NOT go to either a private or a grammar school
actually, simpler, find me the government department WITHOUT a PPE graduate in its top 5 posts

No Talkin I don't as a matter of fact. My experience is somewhat broader. I doubt that your DH has a particularly in depth view of these schools tbh, given how many different schools he visits. Depth is pretty important.

And what's your beef with PPE ?

well PPE certainly does not fit with the IOD and CBI requests for 'practical degrees'
PPE replaced greats
it is the degree of choice for career politicians
nuff said

if grammar schools ARE producing lots of fab scientists and engineers then this story is clearly out of date
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19760351

Find me the PPE politician who did NOT go to either a private or a grammar school

Danny Alexander? I don't know if Libdems count. I thought the problem with the present government was that they were too public school rather than that they went to grammar schools.

Indeed, Danny Alexander went to school in Scotland - where there are no Grammars - but, bless him, he's never done ANYTHING outside politics : he joined the lib Dems on graduation and has kept his nose brown ever since.

The biggest problem with ALL of the current MPs is that they are 'career politicians' who do not know or care how the rest of us live - or educate our children.

Yellowtip - I am sure that you would love my DS to be a failyre so you can say " I told you so", but I know it will not happen.

I do not believe in the eduspeak ( old time speak now) of "early developers", "late developers" and those who " burn out". It has never really happened . Its talk for the system making mistakes and needing to find an excuse for it. In your case I guess you feel a need to justify something you did not achieve?

My DS has always been very able and well above his age group. DW and I try hard to allow him to develop without pushing. Thats why he is not in school. Thats why when he goes it will be to a school where he can become what he is meant to become. I dont want him hot housed and I dont want him to p*ss off his peers or teachers so that they will find reason to make sure he does not achieve his potential or develop his interests.

If he chooses to be a lazy layabout, I will not be disappointed. The real truth about high intelligence is that too often it is over rated anyway. There is little it actually offers of itself. Other factors are more important - like focus and motivation and having a direction.

I am surprised that you see grammar schools as irrelevent. Are there really only a 100 +? There are 12 in my area. I do not see them as irrelevent but they certainly under perform. The other schools do not perform at all. So there you have it.

Hi. I was a deputy in a Bucks grammar until recently - know them all (and their ethos) really well. Please PM me with which school you are looking at - I will be able to help!

@talkin I don't disbelieve that you know about your own kids' comps or that your DH knows about some grammar schools. You claimed that as a general thing parents of children in grammars know nothing of comps. I was pointing out that you are wrong there. I am certainly not the only parent at that school with other children who attend either the local (local here being quite a wide term) comps and community schools. DD1s best friend has a sibling at their local community school. She has another friend with a sibling at the comp DS attends. And two more with one or more sibs at other local community schools or sixth form colleges. As is the case with my kids, different schools suit different types of young person.

I also do not for one moment believe that you know anything at all about the grammar my DD1 attends (which is not in London). My basis for this is that almost every sweeping generalism you apply to grammars does not hold true for our school. You might know about DSs comp but again, probably not. I'm becoming prepared to believe that the grammar DD1 goes to is exceptional. But then, there's no reason why other grammars (eg the Kent ones) couldn't watch and learn, is there?

Incidentally my job involves going round the world looking at organisations, telling them how they are doing and helping them to do better. I never ever discuss any individual organisation with my DH. That would be terribly unprofessional.

talkin - I decided not to send my dd to my old grammar as it was almost entirely science-dominated (discussion on another recent thread) - would that it were full of girls inteested in politics and history etc, as that would have suited my dd absolutely,but sadly not!

I think you will find most of the cabinet (and I think a fair number of the former cabinet too) went to private schools actually - eg Eton. I have no problems at all being represented by people who went to grammar schools - or who did PPE for that matter - I do have a problem being represented by rich bastards who have never done a proper day's work in their lives and who have no idea how ordinary people live.

By the way, Michael Gove went to a minor private school - I would have thought that was obvious. Very few grammar school boys end up in the Tory party - everyone from my grammar is v left-wing. Grammar schools are about merit not wealth - that's why the Tories hate them - because they can't be sure of buying their way in.

Plus, needless to say, the Tory Party is the Stupid Party - research has shown that left-wingers are on average far more intelligent. :)

So not surprisingly, most of those who attend grammar schools can see the glaringly obvious faults with Tory policies. :)

Mordion
I am DHs company secretary, PA and credit controller. It is my JOB to know about the people we send invoices to.

breadandbutterfly
a splendidly sweeping statement :-)

jabed just a word of warning. Never use too many superlatives about your dc. Never inflict your hopes and dreams on them.
Remember that they are individuals with their own thoughts, feelings, aspirations and ideas.

Children have a nasty habit of deviating from their parents' aspirations, and going their own sweet way!

And another word or warning, jabed. Don't disparage other people's options. particularly when you're disparaging from a position of ignorance.