How exactly do you know that your DC should go to grammar school?

[plus3]

Sorry for the ridiculous question, but I am going slightly bonkers.

DS is in yr 4 and has unspecified learning difficulties - mainly with attention and processing instructions. He is bright & remembers incredibly well. Literacy & science are his favourite subjects, and thinks he struggles with Maths but is actually above average. He craves structure and routine

My problem is that I am aware of some children in his class already doing extra work out of school (such as explore & kumon etc) and I now feel like I am letting him down hugely.

Should we be jumping on the treadmill of extra work etc to give him an even playing field? I don't really believe in excesses coaching to pass the 11+

So how do we tell if Grammer could be the place for him? When I have spoken to school, they always imply that academically he will be fine (whatever that means)

Sorry if this long & rambling, it all seems so very competitive around here (Bucks) thanks.

[Arisbottle]

Why on earth should the 11plus be compulsory.

[TalkinPeace2]

ditto
Littlefreida WHY should the 11+ be compulsory?
In counties like Hampshire with comps, all kids go to the school roughly nearest to home and are allowed to reach their level in each of their strong or weak subjects.

[Yellowtip]

Ours is a super-selective which makes things a little more straightforward I suppose. I think there's probably far more pressure in places like Kent. DD would be the only sibling of eight to fail to get in which a lot of people would regard as horrendous, so there's clearly potential for fall out. I'm certainly not telling her that she's a special little snowflake . I've just said what I've said to the others: you're bright but you have to show that you're bright on the day and that can be hard and things can go wrong.

[seeker]

Super selectives are very different from a small town where 23% turn left at Tesco and 77% turn right.

[Yellowtip]

I think that must be right seeker but do you have experience only of Kent? A lot of parents invest quite a lot of emotional capital with superselectives too. The stakes are just, as you say, different.

[TalkinPeace2]

Yellowtip
There are only three counties that are fully grammar (Buckinghamshire, Lincolnshire and Kent) and Kent is by far the largest by population and has the most towns away from other county boundaries so is actually the "purest" (or most rancid) grammar area in the country by a long way.

The carbon footprint of 'superselectives' is just offensive - especially if you take into account the frankly incremental difference it makes in the children's education.

If EVERY school had a proper top set then chances are that UK education would not be sliding down league tables.

Those at superselectives have NO IDEA how the rest of the world (including uber intelligent children with non car driving parents) thinks : FAIL.
They are worse than private school kids as they genuinely think they had a 'state school education'.

[Yellowtip]

I don't accept that the carbon footprint of kids coming in to school on double decker buses albeit from 15 miles away is that offensive. Or that the difference to those same kids' education is incremental.

My local comp is fine. But those of my DC who have now exited the secondary system have had an excellent education at the superselective and none of them would have emerged with anything like the same grades at the comp. Or the same opportunities that they now have. What is pretty unremarkable at the ss is stellar at the comp.

What is offensive is to say that they have 'NO IDEA how the rest of the world .... thinks'. Mine are only too well aware of where they are in the grand scheme of things and they can see the nuances of the system quite well. How patronising! My kids could knock spots off that kind of accusation - in great part thanks to their education.

[TalkinPeace2]

Yellowtip
in a normal catchment secondary, many of the children walk, some cycle and a few are bussed or driven 4-5 miles
please explain how bussing kids in from up to 15 miles away - past lots of other schools - is lower carbon?

And sorry but you appear to have no idea how comp schools work so how will your kids?
NB I was private educated so had no true understanding of the true range abilities till DH started working in education

• he and I are unusual as he has direct experience of everything from uber selective private to restraint clothing special ...

[Yellowtip]

Talkin reducing carbon obviously has its place but it's not the be all and end all. On that basis kids who go to boarding school and don't commute for weeks at a time are the true exemplar. Yours is quite a weak argument which attempts to distract from the one about quality and appropriateness of education.

Your own experience of comprehensive education is vicarious. Mine is too. As is my DCs'. So what. Very few people have first hand experience of each of the models. Big deal.

[Babelange]

I am concerned that predicted level 5s are mentioned here as indicative of suitability for selective secondary school - half of DS's Y6 (2 form entry) state primary got L5s and a further 6 got L6 maths. This is in an area of superselectives (Herts) where two schools have 'grammar' in their names, yet there are only 40-odd academic places in each school and the local authority has 11,000 primary children in each Y group... No wonder these schools develop such a considerable cachet with parents.

Here tuition is rife and I think this is what is causing level inflation - spending time on verbal reasoning and maths is boostering these levels... but then again, I've very much appreciated the relationship DS1 and DS2 made with their tutor, spending just an hour a week going through the different question types typically on 11+ papers. They have recognisably grown in maturity as they have to communicate on a one-to-one basis with the teacher. I didn't think it was terribly expensive (in comparison to a MC staple -eg. piano lessons). I think you have to have a peculiarly compliant DC to take them through practice papers yourself - good luck to you if you have one of these angel children - I only spawned argumentative sulky ones!

We were seduced by the 'grammars' but DS1 didn't get in and so he's at the local comp (posted elsewhere about minor bumps at start of term). He got over not getting in very quickly (they are kids and I don't think can readily articulate the 'might've been'). There's no family pressure or sense of letting the side down.

The comp pushes very hard; streamed from day 1; top sets do 2 languages (French & Spanish), maths taught at a high level. They have done a rotation of sports in PE and are being evaluated for their levels - including ability to follow rules and spatial awareness. PE is not about picking the school rugby team!

So back to OP - you won't really know if your DC will be happy at grammar until they are there. If maths is a worry - find a tutor that can give your DC more confidence - they certainly have to get used to tackling mixed papers rather than focussing on one topic at a time.

I am pleased that DS1 got to the level of attainment he has done. It hasn't put us off going the same route for DS2.

I feel your pain - I was desperate for a crystal ball and would have probably sold my soul to the devil for the gift of clairvoyance - however there are so many factors outside your control. And DS1, Y7, is actually quite different to DS in Y4 - I was planning a life in the arts for him as he hated science and now he wants to be a marine biologist which he can be with intrinsic motivation - it doesn't matter which kind of school he goes to. I did start maths tuition for him in Y4 as I could tell he was very capable but lacking in confidence. Any 'intervention' is likely to be beneficial (although I wouldn't recommend Kumon as it's so boring). You'll probably find that Y5 is the catalyst year for your DC - they tend to make the most progress in Y5.

[breadandbutterfly]

Arisbottle - your experience of grammar schools bears no resemblance at all to my own or that of my various family members who attend/attended grammars. I chose one for my dd and she is loving it (to the extent she begs to go into school when ill as she can't bear missing a day) - and she was not tutored.

A lot of rubbish written here about grammars by people who didn't go to one and don't have kids at them.

[breadandbutterfly]

Re the Herts grammars to the poster who asked,there is no grammar system here but a few grammrs (or semi-selectives) with different tests rather than one county-wide test.

[TalkinPeace2]

breadandbutterfly
that is not grammars, that is bright kids at decent schools.
ATM DD is on painkillers every two hours and on crutches awaiting orthopaedic treatment -but heaven help me if I do not get her into school on time. She bunks PE (cannot walk after all) so has personally arranged extra flute lessons with the head of music and persuaded her latin teacher to help her with self taught italian. - comps have their uses after all

[seeker]

"My local comp is fine. But those of my DC who have now exited the secondary system have had an excellent education at the superselective and none of them would have emerged with anything like the same grades at the comp. "

Why on earth not?

[Yellowtip]

Year in year out on results day the local paper publishes results of the top achievers at each of the schools. My DC are not extremists on the whole. They bubble up towards the middle top or the middle at the grammar. To get the same results at the comp they'd have had to bust a gut (and them some) - but that's not what they are and not what they do. They're conformists, up to a point.

[MordionAgenos]

@seeker my DS didn't want to take the 11+ so he didn't take it. No trauma for the other siblings. If DD2 doesn't pass when the time comes, then she will go to the same school as all her friends and her brother. If she does pass, then she will go to the same school as her sister and at most 1 or 2 friends (and maybe one a year older). No trauma. There will be plus points either way.

[MordionAgenos]

@talkin I went to a comp. My DS goes to a comp. I most certainly do know what comps are like (in the bit of London where I went to school - very different from leafy affluent Hampshire) and in the city where we live now (again, very different from leafy affluent Hampshire). I also have friends who teach at the local private schools and some who send their kids to those schools. They are as different from our SS as our SS is from the comp (I agree it is different. But not as different as it is compared to the private schools). It's also worth noting that the private schools in the city in which I now live as nothing like as posh as the private schools in the bit of London in which I grew up.

[Arisbottle]

Breadandbutter I do have a child at a grammar, I also have worked at a different grammar . So I do have experience , albeit limited.

[plus3]

Thanks Babelange - a crystal ball is exactly what I am looking for!

[hedwig2001]

I'm also in Bucks. DS went through 11+ last year. I found this website really helpful. www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewforum.php?f=12 There is both useful information and moral support!

[jabed]

I do not know if this has been suggested and if it has I apologise. I think if you have to ask if grammar school is right for your child then the answer is probably it is not. If it is right you would know.

[BoffinMum]

I've sent my kids so far to a selective independent school (DD) and a very good comp (DS1 and DS2). The schools are comparable, in terms of academic outcomes, but I like the kids at the comp better than those at the independent school (some of the kids there were under-parented in my view, and a bit off the rails). Ultimately it's not whether it's a grammar or not that determines whether it's a good school, but whether it has scholarly leanings underpinned by vocational excellence.

[WinterStepThisWay]

I disagree completely jabed. As parents, it's perfectly normal to be filled with doubt particularly when a. you're not really aware of what other kids are achieving in terms of level b. you are not familiar with the grammar system and c. you haven't been educated in the UK yourself.

I tick all 3 boxes and whilst I realise my DS is extremely bright and thrives on academic stuff, I honestly don't know how he would fare in comparison to others trying for the same test. NO IDEA. And that doesn't mean grammar school is not right for him, it just means I'm a bit clueless I need to understand more.

As for getting a tutor, fine, granted that some people can afford it and some can't. Such is life. But isn't that the point about working hard towards something? Making an effort to achieve something?

[jabed]

WSTW - these days I would honestly have to say if you do not get a tutor you child does not stand a snowballs chance in hell of getting into a grammar school in this country. Either that, or pay for a private prep /independent school who will prep your child to pass the exam .

I work in an indi ( not the prep part of the school) and I can tell you we usually have near 100% pass rate in the local 11+ Not all of thjose pupils are up to it but their parental aspirations are.

Without tutorledge any child, no matter how bright will not make the cut because of all those who are tutored. Simple as.

Otherwise, find yourself a good independent senior school or the best state SM (or if they call it a comp - a comp) as you can. Thats the choice in this country today.

Someone once put it to me as "Private education or no education" but that may be taking things a bit far. There are good state schools but you have to hunt for them.