Gifted and talented.

[jabed]

Its three O clock in the morning. I have a stinking headache which is why I am up and I would like to get contentious. Do you mind?

With no holds barred, my DS is by any definition gifted and talented. I am a fairly able kind of guy myself and DW is extremely gifted, so no prizes for guessing where he gets it.

The thing is, I have been pondering what I am going to do with him. We currently HE. This is because he is young- He is a late August born and would, were he at school he going into year 2 now. Many a couple of weeks younger would just be going into year 1.
He is gifted as I said, which is another reason for not putting him in school. he has a generally high IQ and academic giftedness and if SW is right he has musical talent.

I don?t want him accelerated. I don?t want him messed with. I want him to be what neither DW nor I were - a child with a childhood. My experience of the local school, which would have been our first choice (and was in fact where we sent him) for his primary years do not deserve him. The teachers cannot deal with gifted children. He does not deserve his peers in that school - disruptive and largely ill socialised with a large percentage at the other end of the spectrum to DS. But there is no other local school.

There is my own school which has a prep but they want to put him a year up.

So, what do you do in that situation? I am at a loss. I have looked at options and got bogged down. We have to make a decision before year 3 as I seriously believe he needs to be in formal education at some point there.

Just a general throw out to see what others would do with such a DS. I reserve the right to get toss potty if people get rude about my DS or my feelings about being middle class etc.
This is my DS not an abstract. Thanks

I really agree with collager actually.

Started ds2 acting classes at 4 as I felt he needed some time away from his disabled brother and acting was the only club that would take him at that age that we could make. At one stage when he was about 7 he wanted to stop but I told him to give it to the end of term and decide. He decided to continue. Fast forward a few years and he has played the main child role in a Stephen Daldry production, he reached the final round of auditions for a touring west end production (was told he was the wrong height) and he's happy to have a go at auditioning for pretty much anything that he could make the performance dates for (and is confident enough not to crack up if he doesn't get it). He's still at primary school

I would never have predicted that he would even like acting. Let alone enjoy it so much. As his headteacher said after seeing him in the SD production he was so shy when he started school he would hardly answer when spoken to, and in fact he used to have speech problems. It's something I could have quite easily vetoed him even trying.

I think assuming children aren't going to like something because they're 'not like that' can be dangerous. I have no idea whether ds1 will carry on acting - but it doesn't matter - he's found something that he enjoys for now and he has the choice to continue or not.

Yes. DS is quite pitifully bad at football, cricket, touch rugby, pretty much any sport that means he has to coordinate his own actions and those of others. However, I was sure there had to be something. He is strong and fit. I wasn't going to write him off as a sporting failure at an early age. Thank God for a triathlon initiative in the local area. Turns out, he's not bad at that!

What if your son wants to pursue a career where he will need to have contact with the non-middle classes? Like medicine. Criminal law. Politics even. It is unusual to want to isolate yourself from large sections of society I think.

It's difficult to separate yourself from your child too, but you really need to make more of an effort. I am not sporty, outdoorsy or musical, but my DS seems to be both physical and musical (as far as anyone can be at 14 months), so I make an effort. Your son needs a chance to be away from his parents to develop his own perspective on the world.

I don't know why I've bothered typing that, since you have had advice from a very wide spectrum of people here and seem inclined to take absolutely nothing from except confirmation of your own superiority.

Gifts and talents aside, what your child needs is social competence. For this he needs regular contact with all kinds of people whether or not you view them favourably. Because this is the reality of the world, and getting on with people is key to success.

The saddest post that I ever read on MN was an adult who had been protected from everything as a DC-she was too scared of the world to operate independently.

Mulling it over I have 3 lots of friends who are much older parents with only one DS and they have all had different solutions but they have all worked at it.

Set 1 sent him to an independent school from the kindergarten and he has just finished in the 6th form. That gave him ready made friends and lots of activities run by the school. Although he lives way out in a village there was generally something going on with the school, especially once he got involved in a sport and took it to county level.

Set 2 have a very bright DS and he suffered in the primary school because he wasn't a footballer. He tried kayaking and loved it. He started competing and the footballers were impressed. He also made a lot of friends through it. Things also improved in the comprehensive which was much bigger with like minded DCs, so that he could join the science club at lunch times etc.

Set 3 had rather a loner. They sent him to local primary, even though it wasn't the best so that he had very local friends. He failed 11+ and went to the secondary modern (with a fancy name) and then to the grammar school for 6th form and he is now doing Maths at a good university. He wasn't in the least sporty but one holiday he played snooker and was very good. They continued on that line and spent all weekends travelling around to competitions. They knew nothing about it before they started.

I don't think that you have many options for education but you do for socialisation-but you do have to trust other adults and DCs and let him get on with it.

Funnily enough, having been a child in a very similar situation to jabed's DS, and a parent in a very similar position to jabed - though in both cases with siblings to take into consideration - I actually fiund myself with a large amount of sympathy for him (even though he and I have crossed swords on other education topics).

Sometimes, seeing other people's ideas and solutions just reinforces that you are happy with what you have already decided and about which you had a 3am-on-holiday wobble...

Tbh, I think that carrying on with HE, or accelerating a year at jabed's school, are both adequate solutions given other constraints.

This isn't a child who is ever going to be 'run of the mill' socially or academically - so while socialisation would be good (and lack of it may become an issue later on in life) it may always be something that the child struggles with, and would be however they are educated. I am now competent socially, though I would say that it was something I found difficult up to university age, and I don't think that acceleration at school made it worse.

And I think being averse to scouting, or any other specific organisation, is also perfectly allowable. Jabed may have a bad personal experience, or know someone who has, or worry about the militaristic overtones, or know that the mum of his DS's greatest tormentor is the Beaver leader, or whatever - that option is out.

Five seems terribly young to decide a child isn't 'ever going to be run of the mill socially or academically'!

TOSN - I was thinking in terms of his parenting and his social situation, not necessarily just in terms of the child himself. Set in a different family, with parents of different ages, attitudes and abilities, in a different location and with siblings, then the same child might develop in a wholly different direction - but given the context, although 5 is young, I suspect that his chances of being 'run of the mill' are small!

The thing is, he may absolutely turn out to be 'run of the mill' academically. A child given 1-1, who's reasonably bright, will obviously progress quite quickly. I remember my father teaching dd1 algebra one afternoon when she was quite small and she picked it up quickly and it all looked impressive.... but it matters not a jot, now.

You don't get 28 year olds boasting that they read at the age of a 35 year old. You don't get first year undergraduates being told they should skip straight to third year. It really does even out - remembering here small 17 year olds starting university with 6As at A level - didn't matter, no one was impressed, they just found it rather more difficult to settle in.

My brother was pushed and pushed after showing early promise at Maths - GSCE early, etc etc. I don't think it did him any favours at all - certainly he isn't a Maths prof now or anything! By degree level it levels out.

In the end, the others will catch up. DS may be brighter than some, less so than others - but it could well be a bit of a crash landing for him to find that out. If you're defined so young,and so strongly as 'very very bright' and 'not sporty/social', when it turns out your brightness might not be as astounding to the wider world, your whole identity is going to need some difficult reavaluation.

The problem I have with OPs post is his statement (on phone so can't cut and paste) earlier that he wants his dc to not mix with riff raff ( not his exact words i think) as he thinks that his child should have a 'middle class' upbringing and will be middle class all his life only dealing with middle class people.
I found that ridiculous.
In banking, one deals with all sorts. In engineering, the number of people you come across from different background is huge. Same with being a doctor...
You have a very blinkered view of society OP.

You can develop the horse riding.Pony club is a huge organisation and they do summer camps.

Only DCs, with lots of adult company, do appear very bright. DS1 had a huge vocabulary very early on because he sat and talked-a lot of the time to grandparents. DS2 and 3 always had each other-they didn't spend so much time talking. I think it is much too early to make any predictions.

We will still HE for the next year. I think my DW is good at it and educationally DS is progressing well. He is also happy mostly. Its my worries that sometimes he seems isolated. But then it is a good thing that to be able to get on with your own company and not be needy of others.

I HE and I don't think it is a bad thing that I worry about the potential for my son to become isolated and as a result get proactive to avoid it being an issue. I am a little taken aback with how very limited social opportunities (structured and unstructured) with other children, outside of the home/family are wafted away as a utter non issues in some HE circles. You may be hearing from other sources that "socialisation", particularly with peers, is way over blown and in reality a non issue, however I think your instinctive concerns are worth listening to

You can go over the top obviously. The first year my poor DS had far too many clubs/groups/activities and got the hump, so I learned to cut out the stuff he was less keen on to make sure he wasn't overloaded.

Now we have just a couple of organised team/group activities (one sport, one not). Plus the Italian version of youth club for about 12 hours a week because I do want him to experience something along the lines of the playground, with all the diverse people and pros/cons it can throw up. Mainly cos it offers him the opportunity to develop strategies for dealing with problems, other people and issues. On top of that he spends at least one whole day and a couple of afternoons a week with his mates here, or all of them at one of their houses. Some of those mates are from school, but several he would never have met without going to the sports group or youth club. Although he'd complain like mad if his social life disappeared at this point I doubt at the start of HE that my DS would have complained of loneliness when I took him out. He was little then and wouldn't have necessarily known the full extent of what he was missing if not given the opportunity to see what a wide range of social opportunities can feel like compared to pootling around at home alone.

I may be in a minority, but I would rather have sucked up the not insignificant disadvantage of our local schools than risk my son being socially isolated due to a lack of opportunities for him to get stuck in with other kids in a variety of contexts.

Incidentally, if you want a tailored, flexible education, and are willing to pay for it, actual brick and mortar schools are not your only option. There are both British and Canadian virtual schools, at least one British one caters for the primary age group. I can whip up some links if you are interested.

I tink private schools give the confidence to deal with people of all types which is why the good careers mentioned on the thread as being things y9ou need to be able to handle "ordinary people" tend to recruit from good private schools so what the privates do in ensuring their children will become doctors etc they do it heaps better than schools which make children of the rich mix with the poor.

I don't really understand jabed's logic. On the one hand he says 'HE has opened up a bigger gap between DS and the school system as DW has educated at DS's pace and this has probably placed him in yr 4 or 5 in terms of attainment now' and on the other hand, in his original post, he says that he doesn't want his ds accelerated. Also, he is saying that children are pushed into the school system too early in England!

i really don't get it.

Xenia I guess by that, you mean that people who go to private schools are not 'ordinary', seeing as they can confidently 'handle' ordinary people - a bit like dog trainers.

Oh Xenia, you do talk some drivel. It sounds as though your argument is that schools which make children of the rich mix with the poor are less able to produce alumni who can handle "ordinary people", but I'm sure that can't be right. Is there something about mixing with 'the poor' that makes pupils less good at dealing with ordinary people then? Are you better at 'handling the poor' if you haven't had too much to do with them in day to day life?

Perhaps that's why relatively few full scholarhips are given out - lest the critical mass of 'children of the rich' be overwhelmed by 'the poor', and their handling abilities take a knock?

My DH's friend at school many years ago was definitely not "run of the mill" he got a place at Oxfird at 15 and that was when you stayed on another term after A levels. Superficially charming our paths have crossed occassionally at work acknowledged to be exceedingly able by his colleagues he is universally unpopular because he lacks real people skIlls. Although not HE he came from a similar environment sounding as that which Jabed DS is in.
But ( assuming this isn't a piss take I remain unconvinced about this) what ever anyone writes I doubt Jabad is going to take a scrap of notice.

As all know I believe in independent ed but the above mentioned friend was educated at one of the UKs top schools so Xenia Im afraid to say didn't do him any good.

There are loads of fascinating issues in this (pity I've had a rush of work).

1. Yes you can make an elite child. it's not that hard. You put effort into it and it emerges like that, you make it feel good and confident, you help it learn its tabes or music practice or ilke the Chinese one I see every day at the swimming pool it is doing length after length every single day all summer. Obviously if it is has IQ of 80 etc you do not get very far but generlaly it works. A Sunday Times journalist wonderred why he and 3 friends were in the top table tennis squad from 3 streets away from his home - it was purely because a teacher at the primary taught the national squad - effort in, resulting talented table tennis players out.

1. Why do private schools produce the people who are best at the higher paid jobs who deal with "orindary people" (not my phrase) every day? First of all it is a total myth put about by women who picked such poor careers they cannot afford school fees that some how their precious little darlings are getting a great education mixing with the poor and disadvantaged as if some brilliant dust sparkles upon their children and then they lead charmed lives. In fact if there is any such dust it is sadly working the other way. Nothing gets clever children on better nor improves their confidence as much as a good private school.

1. Drivel? ON the doctors point I can even quote that dreadful unreadable left wing paper presumably beloved of right on state school parents The Guardian.

www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/mar/16/quarter-medical-dentistry-students-private-schools
"Private schools yield more than a quarter of medical and dentistry students
7% of all pupils attend a private school but teenagers from among them go on to make up 28% of those studying medicine and dentistry"

I thought the same things, Flexybex. Usually it's MNers with quite clever kids complaining that the school isn't accelerating & challenging enough, Jabed seemed to want to avoid that, but it has happened anyway. I guess Jabed would say his DS is driving the education forward in spite of parental desire to keep things laid back.

Might that drive be because the child is so bored from lacking anybody to properly play with?
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I've come across a number of only children of more mature parents who've suffered acutely by being over protected. They've become old before their time and were often the subject of ridicule - fogeyesque. I find it hard to believe that a child is so exceptional aged 6 that he needs to be treated this way, as a prodigy. The very fact of being educated at home may well make a young child appear more prodigous than he in fact is. The poor child in question sounds to be as though he badly needs a break. In fact if I feared I had a prodigy on my hands I'd re-double my efforts to integrate him into normal life (cut back on classical music and museum trips/ feed him ordinary boy books such as Artemis Fowl/ encourage tv/ buy the latest xbox etc. and above all stick him in an ordinary school and let him make friends).

I'd do the same, yellowtip. We're all aware that it's easier to make friends if you've got something in common with them, even if it's Moshi Monsters or Club Penguin! If you're feeding your child a restricted diet of Beethoven, ratios and Shakespeare at 5, you're hardly doing them a favour socially.

Yellowtip an interesting point; if you had a genuine child prodigy you would try harder to normalise him. I don't know if this would work maybe child prodigies are happiest fullfling there natural desire to play a violin or construct maths formulae rather than being taken out of their comfort zone by playing rugby. On the other hand maybe you're right encouraging a child prodigy to be more normal will enable them to be better adjusted human beings. Is it better to force a round peg into a square hole or do we as a society need geniuses who can compose beautiful music, or play the violin, paint pictures and find the solution to cold fusion?

I think there is a big difference between dealing with people from many backgrounds and mixing or socialising with them. My DH deals with people from lots of backgrounds. We have never had to live on benefits or in a council house for him to be able to do that. We dont mix or socialise with those people either and my DH never has. When choosing friends you do not mix with many backgrounds you will generally find people similar to yourself. Having them as a client group is different.

I can understand the OP saying they want their DC to mix with people from a similar group for friends. It doesnt usually make for good friendships when people are very different in attitudes and social group.

I think the best thing to do is find an interest group where the DC's have similar attitudes . That will usually mean they are from a similar background. Music is a good point because often musical taste is determined by background and class and that will mean similar attitudes.

The main concern expressed by Jabed and Sohia is that their DC's don't mix with people from a lower social class background but would you both be equally unhappy for you DCs to mix with those from a higher social background; hereditary peers oligarchs celebrities etc. I suspect you wouldnt. Or perhaps you feel friendships cannot be formed with anyone from a different background to yourself. If this is infact the case you are restricting yourself and your DC's to a very stultifying narrow existence.