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Original poster

Those of you in favour of grammar schools, come and tell me what to say to my Ds...

999 replies

seeker · 19/08/2012 10:34

He woke up crying in the night because the reality had just hit him that he won't be going to school with his close friends in September because he failed the 11+ in September. "I can't be very bright, can I mum, or I would have passed" " no, it was just one of those things-you're going to a good school, you'll be fine" "I know- but if i was clever I'd be going to school with X and Y" "You are clever- look at your SATs-you'll be in the top set at the high school because of those" " it's not SATS that are important, though, it's the 11+"

Do you want to have more kids feeling like that? Then campaign for more grammar schools,

OP posts:
LittleFrieda · 22/08/2012 14:30

seeker - if they abolished grammar schools, there would still be two schools in your town. I would result in two schools, one would be deemed good (the one farthest away from the largest council estate) and be oversubscribed and one would be deemed bad and be undersubscribed. They would both be comprehensive schools. Grin

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 22/08/2012 14:31

Why not separate schools Seeker?

Separate schools means that resources can be directed where they are needed more easily, and it means smaller schools which many people think is a good thing.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 22/08/2012 14:32

Exactly Frieda. Good point well made.

LittleFrieda · 22/08/2012 14:33

I think lots of people move to Kent, for the grammar school system.

If I was ideologically opposed to selective schooling, I'd give Kent a wide berth.

Yellowtip · 22/08/2012 14:34

There are special schools for very disruptive or disengaged pupils too. Does it follow that those children should be educated within the same school too?

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 22/08/2012 14:38

I asked that closer to the middle of the thread Yellow, and I took the lack of response to mean that some people think that it's only disadvantaged children that deserve 'extra' out of the system. Those children from families who try to do their best by their childrens education aren't worth being given an educational establishment that suits them.

Yellowtip · 22/08/2012 14:49

Maybe we'll get a response now then Freddo :)

On the principle thing: fine to do your best by your kids etc. etc. - but if you do choose to sell out, at least then admit it - don't try to cling tenuously to the high moral ground.

Original poster
seeker · 22/08/2012 14:54

"There are special schools for very disruptive or disengaged pupils too. Does it follow that those children should be educated within the same school too?"

Are you saying that the top 23% academically are the same as the very disruptive and disengaged?

OP posts:
LaVolcan · 22/08/2012 14:54

Do children move to Kent for the Grammar school system because it's a way of getting the equivalent of a private education for free? We would need to know what happened when the children failed.

Rumour had it that those on the Oxfordshire/Bucks border opted for Oxfordshire Comprehensives instead of the Bucks High Schools (mustn't call them Sec Mods!)

LittleFrieda · 22/08/2012 14:57

seeker - the other thing is, your DH/DP should be shouldering some of the responsibility for his son's schooling. What does he say to him in the night?

ReallyTired · 22/08/2012 15:00

"There are special schools for very disruptive or disengaged pupils too. Does it follow that those children should be educated within the same school too? "

A lot of people are opposed to educational appartied of special needs children. Special schools often have low expectations and a limited range of courses. For example most special schools do not offer GCSE.

Personally I would like such children to be educated in units on mainstream sites. The children could be integrated back into mainstream as they learnt coping/ social skills. Or they could return to unit if they find the noise levels and general humdum of a secondary too much. Lots of secondary schools have an MLD/ EBD base and it can work well.

Yellowtip · 22/08/2012 15:01

My own view is that Kent takes too large a slice of students off to grammars. But I think the argument for attempting to provide according to need holds good at both ends of the spectrum, yes.

I don't have an issue with separate schools though, unlike you.

LaVolcan a grammar education is not the equivalent of a private education for free!

bunnybing · 22/08/2012 15:09

A lot of people have suggested the idea of moving - of course that might be impossible in your situation but might it be something you could consider in the next couple of years.

Haven't read the whole thread but am I right in thinking that Kent schools all have 6th forms rather than the students going to separate 6th form colleges? Personally I think separate 6th form colleges are much better than 6th forms within the school - so that would be a good reason for moving if i were in your situation.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 22/08/2012 15:10

Are you saying that the top 23% academically are the same as the very disruptive and disengaged?

I realise this quote wasn't in response to my post, but no, they are not the same. That's why they should be educated differently, hence the need for different schools.

What are you saying Seeker? Do you think it's ok for the disruptive and disengaged to be educated differently but it's not ok for the very academic to be educated differently?

I agree with Yellow and think that Kent takes too many students to a different school if they aim to take the top 23%, but I really don't understand this obsession with having everyone educated within the same school gates and under the same school name. What exactly is the point?

wordfactory · 22/08/2012 15:10

Though I can see the flaws in separate schools, I can see that it is more efficient. Economies of scale and all that.

DD attends a mixed ability school that obtains ferociously good results considering the mix.
However, I don't think it's a model that could be easily rolled out on a macro level.

It's small. Setting is rigorous and flexible. DD are selcted for having the right attitude that fits the school. And it costs a bomb.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 22/08/2012 15:10

Oh, and I also agree that grammar education is not private education but for free!

Original poster
seeker · 22/08/2012 15:12

So are you saying there is a spectrum with clever children at one end and disengaged/disruptive at the other? Hmm

OP posts:
LaVolcan · 22/08/2012 15:13

a grammar education is not the equivalent of a private education for free!

Yellowtip - I would disagree with you there. I was a product of a grammar school myself, and a certain number who failed went private if they could afford it, rather than go to the Sec Mod. (Others moved heaven and earth to get into the 'good' SM rather than the crummy one that they would have been expected to go to.)

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 22/08/2012 15:15

Being in Top set for one, two or all subjects in a comprehensive is massively different from going off at 11 to a different building in a different uniform with different rules and a different ethos for seven years. Some may think its a difference worth having, of course, but I would see it as pretty divisive.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 22/08/2012 15:19

Also 'economies of scale' could easily be a euphemism for 'limiting of opportunity', in either school. And I suspect it is, and would be.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 22/08/2012 15:22

No, it isn't clever at one end and disengaged at the other.

It is possible to be extremely academically able and still be disengaged. I think that's why grammar schools are very much needed, so that the ones that are very able academically can be focused into achieving their full potential without having to cope at a young age with others who are disengaged and not as academically able.

It's also possible to be not so academically able but very motivated and interested in learning, and that type of child deserves the attention that is needed to ensure that they do not end up becoming disengaged or distracted.

Some children are disengaged and are not as academically able, and I don't think it does them any real favours to make them be surrounded by others who are motivated to learn or are more able than them, because they have their own set of different needs that also deserve to be catered for within the education system.

It is impossible for a school to be able to take every type of child and to cater for them all as individuals and meet every one of their needs. Even if it were close to being possible, it wouldn't work for the child who simply won't thrive in such a large environment, no matter how good the school is. Someone somewhere will always end up being let down.

Yellowtip · 22/08/2012 15:22

The fact that some people whose DC don't pass the test can afford and opt for the private option doesn't mean that a grammar and a private education are the same.

One mother locally was very vocal in how her DC would never attend the grammar, because the student body and their parents were too common (she then made the mistake of putting each of her DC in for the test, presumably to reject a place, but that strategy backfired....).

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 22/08/2012 15:26

LaVolcan, in what way do you think grammar schools and private schools are the same?

In my experience, they are not at all the same. I am a product of a private school, passes the common entrance but probably wouldnt have passed the 11+ (in my area, which only has a SS) if I'd taken it.

Original poster
seeker · 22/08/2012 15:28

Children with particular educational needs may need zometimes to be educated separately- many schools have units for dyslexia or autism for example. Children who are very disruptive or disengaged are sometimes better catered for in separate units too. I do not consider being bright a special educational need.

OP posts:
LaVolcan · 22/08/2012 15:29

I was speaking from my own experience. There are those who would only educate privately, and never consider sending their children to the state system. Apart from that, the only ones I knew were more than happy to send their children to the grammar school and save the fees but stump up for private when little johnny/janet failed. Maybe it's changed since my day though!