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Something EVERY parent of a child in a UK State school should know about

578 replies

QualifiedTeacher · 01/08/2012 16:58

The UK Government has new proposals to allow non qualified teachers to teach in UK schools. This means our children?s education may be placed in the hands of teachers without basic qualifications such as English and Maths GSCE let alone a Bachelors degree. This policy will mainly be affecting children from the lower economic backgrounds and the reasoning behind employing unqualified teachers is simply because it costs less.

I have attached an epetition which gives more information and is asking for signatures to oppose the use of unqualified teachers in UK State schools. If the numbers signing this petition is large enough, we can get the debate discussed in the UK Parliament. Please help and protect the education of all UK children in State schools.

Thanks

OP posts:
Xenia · 01/08/2012 20:56

mrz, I think most of them do from memory. I certainly think every private school my childrne's father ever worked in was requiring every teacher to have a degree and PGCE. There is so much choice you can get Oxbridge degre plus {GCE plus really good experience and great references particularly if you offer school housing, higher pay than state sector and much subsidised place in the school for the teacher's chidlren so you get loads of very good applicants. It would be rare they would need or want to take one without a PGCE in the good private schools.

However the thread is about bad schools having to take poor teachers. I am deregulatory free markets type of person so I would be against what the petition wants however. The market can decide. If the PGCE ones are best as they usually are then schools will reject the ones without it.

My mother did a Cert Ed in the 40s and I think was a brilliant teacher, primary, no degree or A levels but very good, taught classes of 40 after the war very well. Did she need A loevels for that? I doubt it. Left school at 16, 2 years residential teacher training, loads of experience, good teacher. These days you can't leave school at 16 and do 2 year teacher training (primary schools) . Are the teachers really any better today. It's like so many London secretaries having some pointless degree in history. They might as well have done typing and shorthand for 2 year at 14 and at 16 walked into their first job debt free.

Feenie · 01/08/2012 20:59

I certainly think every private school my childrne's father ever worked in was requiring every teacher to have a degree and PGCE. There is so much choice you can get Oxbridge degre plus {GCE plus really good experience and great references particularly if you offer school housing, higher pay than state sector and much subsidised place in the school for the teacher's chidlren so you get loads of very good applicants. It would be rare they would need or want to take one without a PGCE in the good private schools.

QTS, Xenia - not PGCE.

EightiesOlympicGolds · 01/08/2012 21:03

Teaching is one of those things that people imagine they could all do, if they felt like it, as long as they 'know their subject' or fancy themselves as Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society.

Gove is doing this not to drive up standards but to diminish the power of teachers and their unions. I will sign the petition.

kaumana · 01/08/2012 21:10

Speaking as a parent I would expect a teacher to "know their subject".

tethersphotofinish · 01/08/2012 21:18

"The market can decide. If the PGCE ones are best as they usually are then schools will reject the ones without it."

Do you think this will hold true if the PGCE(QTS) ones cost more than the ones without it?

Candidates will not be appointed on their quality alone unless unqualified teachers are paid the same as qualified ones.

Ketuk · 01/08/2012 21:20

I agree with Xenia- the schools my children attend list their staff and all their qualifications (post- ALevel!) including which form their QTS takes. None of the staff in those schools are unqualified teachers, both are very high performing independent schools.

kaumana · 01/08/2012 21:34

A question I've always wanted to ask specifically to the teachers on this thread.

What do you need to teach primary? Maths/English levels.

What do you need to teach secondary? in. the subjecs Physics/English/Music?

kaumana · 01/08/2012 21:45

Sorry should have stated "what qualifications"

QualifiedTeacher · 01/08/2012 21:47

Kaumana

This is very vague and just a guideline

PGCE route

To be a primary teacher you need a good degree and of course GSCE English, Maths, Science (Combined or triple) and ICT nowadays. As well doing whatever formal training, all teachers have to take additional examinations in English, Maths and ICT to obtain QTS as well as passing their in school training and their academic requirements.

To teach secondary you need the same plus a degree that consists of at least 50% of the subject you want to teach or a degree that is strongly related to that subject. So if you want to teach English, a degree in English and Drama will suffice. An Engineering degree may enable you to teach Maths or Physics if the course consisted of a lot of Maths and Physics. You are expected to have or show that you have the relevant subject knowledge in order to teach at secondary.

At primary, you need to teach EVERYTHING, English, Maths, Science, Design and Technology, Art, Music, Citzenship, History, Geography you name it. It takes many years after gaining a QTS to really excel in doing this but of course, you will cost more.

BEd route

It is also possible to train from A levels and do a 4 year or 3 year Bachelors in Education that will prepare to teach at secondary.

In school
Depends, some Graduate Teaching Programmes want you to have a 1st or 2.1 in the subject degree.

But whatever the route, you must have GSCE English and Maths at least as well as pass those specialist English, Maths and ICT exams. A few years ago the government was harping about wanting all teachers to have Masters degree now it's any one will do.

OP posts:
QualifiedTeacher · 01/08/2012 21:50

You can do a BEd to teach in Primary or Secondary and GTPs to teach in Primary or Secondary.

OP posts:
EightiesOlympicGolds · 01/08/2012 21:52

kaumana - Me too. Teachers should know their subject. But that's only part of it. Not everyone who knows a fair bit about something is equipped to teach it.

kaumana · 01/08/2012 21:53

qualifiedteacher Thanks

Feenie · 01/08/2012 21:55

Or a BA with a QTS. Used to be 4 years (mine was 20 years ago) but is now 3 years, I believe.

MainlyMaynie · 01/08/2012 21:59

I'm guessing those specialist English tests you've passed aren't too hard Grin

kaumana · 01/08/2012 22:02

eighties I agree, I "know" alot in my subject, didn't think I would be able to help others until I was put on the spot...

QualifiedTeacher · 01/08/2012 22:04

MainlyMaynie, the English test was pretty hard. You had to do spellings and a comprehension test that was quite tricky. I passed them all first time but not all teachers do. And yes, I know I make spelling and grammar mistakes when typing on the internet, but that doesn't in any suggest that my general level of Education is poor. I'm doing other things as well as typing on here.

OP posts:
mam29 · 01/08/2012 23:27

Weird when gove came to power he said he wanted teachers to be have better than c grade at maths /english and science.

I considered teaching but only got d in maths and science passed english and did degree business and finance so dont think 1year pgce would have been optiion.

I do know a few teachers.

teacher 1 head science secondry- moans that primary school teachers get paid same when he thinks secondrys harder.

teacher 2-senior independant all girls-think he loves it.

teacher 3 was in state primary moved to independant loves small class sizes.

teacher 4 inner city rough primary-hates it says she gets ta to do all teh cleaning, wiping bottoms and cleaning up sick.

I then come to my daughters school.

Noticed since having kids

teachings good profession as holidays off, you get paid.
loads do part time job shares
sometimes their kids go same school.

Our last deputy head was sick a lot.
school got downgraded in ofsted due to temp head and 4temp teachers.
just an observation-but theres a lot of sickness.

teacher 4 has had lot time off sick. she says most teachers go off stress /back as cant be proved and 1 teacher in her school was sick all time. not sure how true this was as sounded nuts to me but if had year off sick paid then came back for fullweek they acn then go back on sick and start getting paid again!

So I dont think sickness\high pay helps the profession and ofsted downgrade schools on those facts.

ta-s genrally very lovley and hardworking.
but again become popular profession and now most tas have to be highly skilled with experience and do courses so they not just lay helpers chucked into classroom get impression ta taught reception when reception teacher was ill again.

I had no issue with this as she had been in that school 25years.
knew everything , would know the children, their routines and what they had been working on ect.

last year 1parent complained to head about a supply teacher.
The kids loved him as so rare to have a man and his speciality was science yet pushy mum asked if he was qualified as he was secondry school teacher not primary.

The rather keen student teacher in reception year was not qts as in training but taught the kids and the kids loved her enthuisam and dare say prefered it to normal teacher .

tas-dont get paid for holidays yet on the whole they do a fab job.

one of my bugbears about our primary is hardly any after school clubs as thats extra unpaid work on teachers part yet the well performing juniors down road always has stuff on, sometimes read on mumsnet about teachers that go the extra mile not met one yet so far whos wowed me.

I think most people go into profession because

they hopefully like kids
good profession with kids.
secure job very very few teachers have been sacked for poor performance
pay and benefits good than other jobs in private sector.-for example a retail manager may work a 50hour week for 20k.

Looking back to my own childhood.

I had few good primary teachers
quite a few males ones which thinks good.
we dident have tas then they just taught class by themselves

At secondry level despite being qualified had some really dire teachers.

ranging from

alcoholic music teacher who used to hide empty bottles in classrom, shout and smack kids-of course she retired under ill health.

elderly maths teacher with a lisp-who one day some kids threatened to throw him out of window.

one lady had mini breakdown.

the home ec teacher who taught when my mam was in school ws just horrid.

a physic teacher who had no patiance and refered to kids not in top set as thickos.

a short arrogant langauge teacher who threw his weight around as resented teaching us french but the school made him.

a actual french-french teacher who no one could understand.
then another french teacher lovley but couldent control the class and was bullied.

maybe a theme here but in my comp teachers had their favourites and everyone else was left to fail.

A disruptive class meant some subjects i never did well in.

What I would like to see in schools is

1)more accountability if teachers underperforming
2)more male teachers as think that benefits kids from single parent families, more balanced and really helps boys-anyone remebre that choir master garath malone teaching the boys in a essex primary and how dismissive the female teachers were of him and what he was trying to achieve.
3)well displined classses so especially secondry everyone has fair chance to learn-think in states army teach in rough schools sometimes people from other backgrounds can bring fresh approach as long as they intellectually clever and can do the job.
4)smaller clases-30 is just too high smaller classes will mean more kids learn.

As it happens my sisters freind qualified and cant get a job.
its now very competative market especially primary,

im firm believer in value for money if it allows kids a better more founded education and good facilities

I think the pay structure does need a shake up.

bad schools should pay more to encourage the best teachers

in expensive areas-pay should be weighted

primary maybe should get different pay to secondry.

teachers moan about admin maybe tas can take over some of that free up time for them to teach,

if means more 1 to one attention then think thats good thing for teacher.

teachers have protection of unions I can see why they may resist change but from experince of being a parent, growing up and teachers I know then i think its needed.

finally im sure this is just for academies and free schools which here are slightly selective and highly sough after schools to teach in and send kids to.

my city bristol is split into councils/las.

bristol-one of worst in entire uk near the bottom
severe shortage of school places, desperatly needs more schools build-got extra funding from gove as its a crisis some years 300kids without any of 3choices-most of those parents be glad of school with any teachers never mind qts.

south glos-my la-one of lowest funded per pupil despite having some deprived areas doesnt seem fair. im guessing teachers salaries is quite a bit of schools budget.

sashh · 02/08/2012 07:21

I can teach a 14 year old in a college. I'm qualified to do that. But if I teach a 14 year old in a school (same child, same subject) I am considered unqualified.

A teacher with QTS, can teach in a college and be considered qualified.

madwomanintheattic

My PGCE had a lot of SEN content, many people who were let down by their SEN not being recognised at school return to education later.

knitknack · 02/08/2012 07:33

Please note that teachers DON'T get paid for holidays!! Our pay is divided out but we're only paid for the weeks in school...

knitknack · 02/08/2012 07:44

Also I have to say that I don't recognise these tales of awful/illiterate/drunk/whatever teachers - its so weird. I'm just a normal, state teacher (HOD) and all I see around me are good, decent, hard-working (boy are they hard working), dedicated, caring individuals making an honest difference to kid's lives. I came into teaching 'late' at 38, and it was partly a desire to work with people like this that made me do it. Plus, the intellectual challenge is way beyond what I experienced at Masters level... Sometimes I read these threads and feel as though I must teach in another universe.

So MUCH of teaching, it should also be said, is about anything BUT subject knowledge. Pedagogy is the main focus but if an individual cannot cope with the emotional/behavioural/child protection side of things then they shouldn't be allowed in the classroom.

I actually feel there probably IS a place for those without 'QTS' in the classroom, indeed I happen to work with a fabulous 'teacher' who should probably be referred to as 'instructor' and doesn't have 'QTS' but DOES have 30+ years of experience. BUT my biggest fear is the continued 'down grading' of teaching as a 'profession' (which it very much is) and this move will, I suspect, contribute to that. We need to look to the Scandinavian model (their results are leading the world) where teaching is one of the most highly valued jobs, and teachers are therefore incredibly well-qualified. In this light Gove's announcement can be seen as nothing but regressive, imo.

mam29 · 02/08/2012 08:07

Knit knack.

I went to senior in 1992 and ouyr town only had 1 comp so not much choice sure we had some dire teachers but had some ok ones.
But on the whole looking back wasent the right school for me -lots of children got left behind , if I lived there now I wouldent send my kids there.

The fact you came to teaching late I think is good thing
you did other stuff and had life experience thats new thing to offer.

I think in uk the quality of schools and teaching is quite diverse.
some of us had bad experinces as a pupil or even with our own kids.

My mam still really doesnt take much interest in education says it bores her and most of my freinds are annoying pushy mums.

There was no ofsted and sats.
she just sent em to nearest school not necessarily right school for me.

I moved schools at age 7 and was behind.
The school i moved to was ok, some nice teachers but knew 4other people including cousins in nearby school which would have been better for me.

secondry was a mess i had a 2nd option a smaller one as wasent the most academic I had to work hard to get good grades.
i know think a lot was down to poor teaching.
I was let down in infants was always playing catch up and secondry got lost in system and hovered towards bottom.

I went onto college after 6form and found all 3 of my college tutors fab- guess they dident have qts but I passed my a levels.

I think we have to be objective and ask

in what context will unqualified teachers be teaching.
wehn we say unqualified i suspect they means they been taught to degree level thats hardly thick.

Also recognise that clasroom assistants do a valuable role and this could allow for more 1 to one teaching.

im sure this new policy was aimed at academies-mostly in areas deprivation so having

something different may be good for these kids if gives them

a decent male role model
extra help-for ones struggling.
boosts their aspiration levels

dont get me wrong there are teachers who love the profession and thats why they did it.

Theres some been in professions for so long they maybe fed up like any other profession but feel too late to get out or dont know what to do and struggle to adapt to the changes in education.

But a few left school did degree got qts very young and and did teachinga s dident know what else to do.

im form believer in right person right place right time.
different schools need different type of teacher if that makes sense.

Some of the inner city schools struggle as need a lot of language help as so many languages spoken and work hard to intergrate all pupils-this I imagine be tough place to teach.Plus needs more staff.

Another secondry in very deprived area-head decided in year 7 to teach most primary literacy and numeracy as they were so behind as said no point teaching other subjects if they cant read or write.
Again this type of school and thhose issues more staff be better and non qrs people could maybe plug that gap and help.

Jinsei · 02/08/2012 08:10

I am not a teacher, so have no personal axe to grind. But I am a parent, and I am extremely concerned by this move. I do not want my dd to be taught by people who have shown no commitment to the teaching profession, and by those who have had no training in the field. I would not want to be treated by an unqualified doctor either, nor would I want an untrained electrician wiring my house.

The government is clearly out to do two things. Firstly, they are looking to save money as cheap TAs cost a whole lot less than qualified teachers (but do a lot less as well IMO). Secondly, they are seeking to undermine the professional status of teachers by trotting out that tired old chestnut that "anyone can do it". They can't, they shouldn't and as a society, I fear we may all regret this further down the line.:(

vj32 · 02/08/2012 08:11

Why do you need a maths GCSE to teach languages?
Because of all the data analysis you have to do as a teacher and as a tutor. If you can't get a maths C grade at GCSE, then you are not really going to cope in some schools that are very data driven.

SunAtLast · 02/08/2012 08:23

Jinsei beautifully put.

Feenie · 02/08/2012 08:58

mam29 TAs do have a valuable role, but more one to one teaching using TAs may not be the way to go:

Teaching assistants fail to improve school results

primary maybe should get different pay to secondry.

In what way?

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