The best Independent schools generally take the highest qualified teachers?

[Hamishbear]

It might be obvious to many that the most academic schools insist that their teachers have an outstanding degree from one of the best universities but it wasn't to me.

For example if you want a job in Maths at Guildford High school allegedly you need a first in Maths from a well regarded university. You obviously need to be an outstanding teacher in the fullest sense too.

So do the elite schools usually have the best teachers? I suppose it stands to reason that there is more competition for jobs at schools that have a fantastic reputation?

*I was asking why the first degree of a teacher was more important than where they trained to do their job.

It's like with doctors - is it more important where they did their first degree, or where they trained to be a surgeon?*

No, it's not that sort of comparison. Where people do their first degree is how they get sorted. You can see how well they did at A level and whether they met tough entry criteria. A 1-year PGCE is not a reliable sorting mechanism for all sorts of reasons.

Hopefully - again, you show your complete lack of understanding of the profession.

A 1-year PGCE is where people learn to apply their knowledge in a school situation. It is where one becomes QUALIFIED TO TEACH.

Hopefully, I am afraid that is is EXACTLY that sort of comparison, and it is your misunderstanding of this (in which you are not alone) that has resulted in this thread becoming so long.

Exactly like a surgeon, a teacher has to learn to do their job. If they learn it well, they will be better at teaching (for the reasons I have stated above, this is particularly important when genuine teaching is required, ie when children find it hard to learn). They will learn better if their training institution is better at training them...

Yes, as hoefully says it is the main sorting mechanism. If you are not very bright you don't go to very good universities in the UK, end of story. However loads of people who don't still do well in lots of areas and you can be great at teaching without having been able to read for a degree at Bristol say. I don't think teachers need to be worried if they didn't go somewhere goo dbut if you do find they keep being rejected for jobs they may want to look at those universities those already at the school went to to see if there is a difference from where they went for their first degree.

So Xenia, how do you account for the fact that Shrewsbury employs teachers from ex-polytechnics? Are you suggesting that Shrewsbury is not a good school?

I think Gel has found the answer for our thread (and my links to staff in good private schools):
"The main qualification of nearly three-quarters of teachers in independent
schools is a subject degree compared with just over 60 per cent of the teachers
in maintained schools.
Teachers in independent schools are more than twice as likely to have been
awarded a first. Over 60 per cent have at least an upper-second compared with
45 per cent of the teachers in maintained schools.
Teachers in independent schools are five times more likely to hold a PhD as
their highest qualification. Nearly a quarter of independent school teachers
have obtained a higher degree, against 16 per cent of teachers in maintained
schools.
Teachers in independent schools are seven times more likely than those in
maintained schools to have graduated from Oxford or Cambridge - 13.0 per
cent against 1.8 per cent. Nearly 30 per cent (29.4 per cent) come from the
leading universities, as ranked by the major league tables, compared with 10.5
per cent in the maintained sector."

As for the more general point of employers post university stage yes they look at the place where the student went. They look reasonably widely but with heaps of applications they need some filters and in some areas if you're not Oxbridge you don't even get a look in. Ilooked at some barrister chambers the other week on mumsnet and stopped looking through the junior people after about 5 as they were wll Oxford or Cambridge. That does not mean others are never considered of course and jobs vary. I think the national newspapers also have a lot of Oxbridge people too and various other careers.

A quick look at St Paul's School also throws up members of staff from polytechnics. Does this mean that they are not very bright? Not good at their job? Should be sacked?

No. Of course not. But it perhaps suggests that the choice of university at 18 does not necessarily correlate to being a good teacher, which is what this thread is about.

But don't you see, teacher and ET, that I have no misunderstanding about the world in which I live? It's you who don't see that in the real world, people with degrees from Gloucester do not get plumb graduate jobs, and equally, they do not get teaching jobs at good independent schools.

I have ALWAYS agreed with you that the brightness of the teacher may not have any bearing on their ability to teach. There have been posts indicating that there is some evidence that brighter teachers make better teachers, but that evidence has not been posted on this thread.

You're in denial, you two. You're in denial about the way the world works.

I think Sutton have answered the issues on the thread.

On St Paul's girls http://www.spgs.org/who-we-are/staff
It is pretty much as we have all said above 0 most people at Oxbridge or good universities in all these private schools Habs, NLCS etc with the odd person who isn't but here's a selection from the start.

I won't paste the whole st P list as it is
Christelle Aguillon-Williams BA, MA (Poitiers) modern languages Elizabeth Armstrong BSc (Exeter), MRes (Lancaster) geography
Stephen Arscott BA (Cantab) religious studies Timothy Askew BA (Oxon) history and politics
Howard Bailes BA (Adelaide), PhD (London) history and politics Helen Barff BA (Goldsmiths), MA (Camberwell) art and design
Vanessa Baron MA (Cantab), MA (London), BSc (City) religious studies Julia Barron BA (Wales), MA, PhD (Manchester) modern languages
Wayne Barron BA (Cantab) Classics Sandra Barth BA (Martin-Luther-Universitaet Halle-Wittenberg) modern languages
Lucy Baxter BA (Central School of Speech and Drama), MA (London) English David Benefer BA (Norwich School of Art) art and design
Paola Bianchi MEng (Cagliari) maths Carole Boothman BA (Liverpool) modern languages
Laurelle Borck BSport (Waikato) PE Clare Brashaw MA (Leeds) art and design
Jonathan Bromley BA (Oxon) history and politics Spencer Buksh BSc (London) maths
Rachel Chamberlin BSc (Durham) natural sciences Elizabeth Coutts MA (Oxon), MA (London) history and politics

There are two teachers at Roedean who trained at Gloucestershire.

Hopefully

So you are wrong then.

My son attends a school based in an area with a reap rep (although actually a great school that makes a massive difference and is far better IMO than the very desirable academic state closer to us that ds2 will attend in September). he is taught 3 by three teachers who have a PhD, Frencg teacher from France etc. His personal tutor has 3 degrees as well as her PGCE and is completing a Masters in the diagnosis of the children she works with (many of whom are very academic).

OTOH when ds2 brought the transition leaflet home from the the local school there were misspellings.

I am not sure there is a moral to this except don't assume desirable means good and select the school best suited to your child from the available options. DS1 has gone from bottom in everything to top of most classes in his first year. It now looks as if university is a sensible aim for him.

Xenia - clever of you to not pate the who St P list - that would mean including the two from Wolverhampton Polytechnic and Sheffield Hallam and potentiall having to admit you are mistaken.

clever of you not to paste the whole... - trying to do too many things at once.

I dont think Shrewsbury is amongst the top ranking schools - at least not the top 50, although, I know there are several such league tables and they change constantly.

I think St Pauls might come in around the bottom.

Of course both are good schools.

I dont think its any secret that I am a senior school teacher. I guess the Poirots and Miss Marples are trying to isolate my school?
You wont. I havent given you enough information and I wont either.

Is Roedean academically selective? I wouldn't send DD there, I thought it was for the 'naice but dim'. I haven't done any research into it, I admit, but clicking into its website, I see the following:

We were delighted to maintain our 100% pass rate, with 50% of grades at A-A. This mirrors perfectly the national average for independent schools which also stands at 50% of grades at A-A

Which means that it isn't particularly academically minded, I reckon.

I've found the teachers' qualifications bits. They do have some surprising entries from ex-polys, although the academic subjects look a bit more respectable. Definitely academically lightweight. I'm not sending DD there.

XeniaSun 24-Jun-12 15:23:22 - is that the St. Pauls list? Well I have just totted up four Cambridge grads in the first half dozen names. For those unsure Cantab + Cambridge ( not Christ Church Cantabury) . Then there are the Oxons ( thats Oxford)

So where is the lack of Oxbridge people there?

As a manger in education (not academic) the first question I would ask at interview for a 2nd or 3rd jobber would be "what have been the results of your last three lesson observations". I would then want that triangulated by their reference.

Because I had no idea allegedly you needed a first in Maths to get a job at GHS, to be considered, to be in the running. A friend has recently applied. Apparently this was true for all the top independents these days, it got me thinking (dangerous at the best of times :)). Competition is fierce and the best schools can pick and choose.

I have checked this list and am interested to see that the third school on the list employs teachers whose first degrees came from (amongst others), the City of London Polytechnic , Surrey, Dartford College of Physical Education, and the University of Gloucestershire.

I also find it interesting that many schools don't feel the need to publish such information - Cheltenham Ladies', for example - perhaps the HT feels that she wants parents who trust her judgement in employing her teaching staff.

That's a seriously naive view, ET. You have to research schools carefully. A great name can mask all sorts of inadequacies. If you were buying a new car, I suspect you would read around the subject, research it carefully, make sure it was ecologically friendly, crash-safe etc. Your children's education is far more important than a new car, and frankly costs a lot more. I would be very wary of a school that demanded it be taken 'on trust'. I'd wonder what it was that they needed to hide.

It's only an attitude of mind that one comes across in the state sector though. Most independent schools do provide all the information you require - upon demand if it is not published on the website.

I don't need to be patronised, Hopefully. I think I am more knowledgable about schools and the education system than you are.

at the thought that CLC might be trying to hide something by not publishing their teachers' qualifications on their website. The same is true of Eton. And the top two on the Independent Top 100 list.

And many more. But of course, you'd know that.