The best Independent schools generally take the highest qualified teachers?

[Hamishbear]

It might be obvious to many that the most academic schools insist that their teachers have an outstanding degree from one of the best universities but it wasn't to me.

For example if you want a job in Maths at Guildford High school allegedly you need a first in Maths from a well regarded university. You obviously need to be an outstanding teacher in the fullest sense too.

So do the elite schools usually have the best teachers? I suppose it stands to reason that there is more competition for jobs at schools that have a fantastic reputation?

Hopefully, you've obviously done a great deal of research. I've found it's incredibly difficult to get an real idea about a school before you sign up. You can pay for advice for independent schools and come away none the wiser. Ideally you'll know a fair few who attend already to get a real insider's view.

I checked LEH, and couldn't find anyone from Gloucester. The ex-poly based teachers you mention are all for things like PE or Drama, rather than traditional academic subjects. If you check the traditional academic subjects, its a roll call of the better universities. For instance, my own subject

English
Mrs H M Ndongong, BA Oxon (St Edmund Hall)

Ms A Crompton, BA (Salford)
Mrs C L M Gilroy-Scott, BA (Birmingham)
Mrs V Griffin, BA Cantab (Homerton)
Mr S Halse, BA (London), MA (London)
Mrs J Morris, BA London (King's College London)
Mrs C Richardson, BA (Reading) *(Head of Holles House)
Miss A-M Wright, MA (Aberdeen)

I am not in denial about the way the world works - if this thread was about the final destinations of graduates from different universities then I would agree with you that the range of destinations available to young adults with a first degree from the University of Gloucestershire would be different from those from the University of Cambridge.

(Though as the current careers of my own friends from Cambridge - all with 2:1s or Firsts - go Lecturer, Lecturer, SAHM, Secondary Teacher, Secondary Teacher, Primary Teacher (all in state schools), Senior Civil Servant, University Administrator, senior manager in large company, Doctor, Engineer, IT consultant, Mature student, it is clear that the final destinations of graduates from all universities is more mixed than Xenia might have you believe!)

However, the thread is about teachers, and explores links between first degree, teacher training and quality of teaching in different sectors an at different ages. That is the world I live in, and know a lot about.

No, ET, I was not suggesting that CLC has anything to hide. In fact they are very open and helpful. We are looking at CLC for 6th form for DD, actually so I do know a bit about it.

I was saying that any school that demanded to be taken on trust (your suggestion) was absurd. No independent school should be taken on trust. In fact, no state school should be taken on trust either. Schools are responsible for educating our children and as parents, we should be rigorously working to improve standards.

Hopefully - LEH - Head of Upper School is a graduate of the City of London Polytechnic. His subject is Maths. The graduate of Gloucestershire is head of SEN. One of the Science teachers went to Sheffield Hallam.

So no, not "all for things like PE or Drama".

www.etoncollege.com/TeachingStaff.aspx

Etons staff list

HB - yes local knowledge is worth a lot. People around the schools generally know what is going on there.

I've never felt the need to do so before, but have now had a look through the teaching staff of the top 10 on the Top 100 list. All those who publish staff lists on their website employ teachers from a variety of universities, including, in all cases, ex-polys. Loughborough High School, for example, includes English teachers from Leeds Met and Manchester Met, St Swithuns Winchester has a History teacher from UWE, Head of SEN from Gloucestershire, Nottingham High School has staff from Leeds Poly, Swansea Institude and Gwent College.

Perhaps this proves that the parents are far bigger snobs than the Headteachers or Governors. Thankfully, it is the latter who make the employment decisions, rather than the former.

Jabed - Eton does not publish where staff went to university. Which was my point. Apparently they have something to hide.

Can I just add that unless you know the curriculum that the teachers have been through during their degree, then it makes little difference where they come from. A degree is a degree and although some have snob value in that they are Oxbridge, this doesn't mean that they can do anything but exams. They might be able to help students get into Oxbridge but will passing exams equip students for the wider world or other uni's - unlikely.

A good teacher has many qualities and being highly qualified in one's subject area (such as with a PhD) does not mean they are able to distil/dumb this down for younger students; ditto an Oxbridge or Russell Group degree.

I agree with ET above, it seems parents are bigger snobs than the schools who thankfully can see the rounded person and know what is most important for their institition.

Actually one key factor in choosing a school is its ethos. When it comes to independent schools, the vast majority are not-for-profit organisations. I'd always avoid schools that exist for a profit motive - they'll skimp on costs (facilities and teaching) and try to exploit.

Another key aspect of ethos for me, is avoiding schools with a 'we-know-best' mentality. Trust is an important factor between parents-children-school, but it can't and IMO shouldn't be given blindly.

When i did do my selection between the three schools that were relevant to me at secondary stage there were only three because I wasn't about to move or send them boarding before 16. I found that the independent school was genuinely seeking improvement in every area in which it operated. I honestly found this less in the state sector. So when I checked the school libraries (bear with me, I really was totally nerdy about this) the state ones were not so good, and there literally only a handful of places where children could work. One of them had a funny attitude towards age-appropriate reading - ie wouldn't let a 13 YO take out a book that was only deemed suitable for 16+ for instance. And when you asked them about it, they were hugely defensive and indicated they were not prepared to change in any way. Being receptive to change is important too.

I haven't checked all the other schools that ET has checked in terms of qualifications of the teachers. But it seems to me that there must be many more graduates from ex-polys and colleges of higher education than there are from older universities. It also seems to me that if you can only identify one or two members of teaching staff from ex-polys and colleges of higher education at the leading independent schools, then it is safe to assume that a predisposition exists not to employ those from poorer establishments of tertiary education. Is that a safe conclusion to reach?

I don't need to be patronised, Hopefully. I think I am more knowledgable about schools and the education system than you are

I dont believe that for a minute. I see little evidence of it.

I thinkt he debate is over as all the links to the best schools which show where people go proves the teachers on the whole went to Oxbridge and the better universities and the quote from the Sutton trust who did a proper survey quoted above shows private schools have better teachers.

It is yet another reason why it's best to pay if you can afford to.

I disagree, Hopefully.

I don't think this proves a predisposition to employ certain staff. I think it proves that the schools in question are not judgemental about where their staff came from.

Of course, the other thing to consider (and we've been here before) is that schools can only choose from the applicants. At Nottingham High School, there is a disproportionate number of graduates of Nottingham University. Personally, I would expect that. When I graduated from Warwick, I stayed in Warwickshire for my first appointment, for a number of reasons.

Hopefully, I refer you to a post much futher up the thread - when schools appoint teachers, they choose from the pool of applicants. No one lines up all the teachers in the country and allocates them to schools with the cleverest being sent to the top independents.

I would say that the fact that all the Indepdent schools I checked have a mixture of Oxbridge, Red Brick and New University graduates in their staff suggest nothing more than that teachers come from a variety of different educational backgrounds, and that Headteachers are free to select the applicant best suited to the job.

Do you now accept that graduates of Gloucestershire University are capable of securing jobs in top Independent schools?

jabed - f**k off. There is no need for that.

Eton does not publish where staff went to university. Which was my point. Apparently they have something to hide

If you look atthe qualifications you can tell what kind of places they come from.Only a limited number of institutions award B.Phil, M. Litt or BD's for example.

Well its no less than you said to me ET. Except I had more manners than to respond in anglo saxon expletives.

But the vast majority have BA, MA, BSc etc - which doesn't help at all.

Good summing up from Xenia.

Valiant rearguard action from the state school teachers tho' :). I'd invite you to consider whether the fact that the leading independents mainly employing teachers from the older universities is misguided snobbery or whether it has any bearing on the rather good exam results they obtain.

And before I sign out of the thread, I do agree that qualifications do not necessarily make a good teacher. But I bet it helps :)

I'd invite you to consider whether the fact that the leading independents mainly employing teachers from the older universities is misguided snobbery or whether it has any bearing on the rather good exam results they obtain.

I rather suspect that the rather good exam results are mainly to do with the fact that such schools are selective.

That's the bottom line for me.

Agree with hr. I've never particularly minded where good teachers went but I am on the whole pleased the best private schools pick those from the better places. I've never looked at a school staff list despite paying fees for 24 years actually until this thread but I would always have known the calibre of teachers, their IQ levels in convesration, their spelling, grammar, accents tends to indicate where they went to university. If you showed me a room of Middlesex poly graduates and say Bristol ones I could probably work out which was which even if they were naked with neutral hair cuts.

So how do you account for the fact that my local superselective state grammar gets worse results than my local selective independent? With a worse quality of intake. Does it not fit with your world view that the teaching might be better?

"the Sutton trust who did a proper survey quoted above shows private schools have better teachers."

No, it showed that the teachers employed by private schools had better first degrees.

For all the reasons discussed above, this does not make them better teachers.

I am quite prepared to admit that it might make many of them teachers who are well-suited to teaching in an independent selective institution.

That does not equate to being better teachers per se.

Well, my local comprehensive with its top pupils creamed off by the local superselective grammar gets better results than my local selective independents, several of which are nationally known.....

I wonder where the teaching is better??

Our DS goes to the one of the best London independent schools and one of the UK's leading IB schools (some years the leading one). Have little idea where his teachers went to university. We applied to the school, he passed the test, unusually we then went to look at, we liked it, we thought it was right for him so we sent him there at the age of 8. Its main competitor with which our home is equidistant would have been just as good I'm sure but at the time we were contemplating moving closer to where we sent him.

The proof is in the pudding - he has been very happy, his talents have been nurtured, he brought home 11 A*s and an A last year at GCSE, has had a successful lower 6th and we hope he will go to Oxford.

No idea whatsoever where his teachers went to university and am so happy with the overall package that I don't care either.