The best Independent schools generally take the highest qualified teachers?

[Hamishbear]

It might be obvious to many that the most academic schools insist that their teachers have an outstanding degree from one of the best universities but it wasn't to me.

For example if you want a job in Maths at Guildford High school allegedly you need a first in Maths from a well regarded university. You obviously need to be an outstanding teacher in the fullest sense too.

So do the elite schools usually have the best teachers? I suppose it stands to reason that there is more competition for jobs at schools that have a fantastic reputation?

The only thing that concerns me on the thread is some people as ever remain deluded about which institutions count. By all means let them continue in that frame of mind but do not let that be passed on to the children they teach or their own children.Also if you do have a fairly bright children a t Haberdashers etc you pobrbaly dowant and expect (a) good teachers - good at teaching (b) that they went to a good place and (c) they have a PGCE. On the whole you get all of that for most of the teachers so it's worth paying.

Most children are not clever enough for this kind of school whether state or private anyway. Whether they need teachers with a - c or not I've never really had to consider.

However teachers need to know that City /top employers and even best schools will not be considering in the massive pile of 2/1s and firsts from new graduates if they have been to an ex poly and there is a pecking order. You may not like the pecking order but it expects so make sure everyone knows the real list in the mind of most recruiters.

Why is the first degree relevant? Why is it more relevant to the quality of the teacher than the quality of the institution they learned to be a teacher at, especially since the table takes into account the quality of entrants into that teaching qualification (ie the quality of the entrant in terms of e.g. A levels of first degree is one componant of the position of the provider in the course ranking)?

The type of crude ranking that Jabed has indicated does not always hold water when you look at specific courses....

Whichever table you look at, all my current colleagues ( as myself) are trained at institutions which occupy one of the top four places. What else is there to say? Top degrees. Top PGCE courses too.

I am not saying anything or drawing any conclusions.

However teachers need to know that City /top employers and even best schools will not be considering in the massive pile of 2/1s and firsts from new graduates if they have been to an ex poly and there is a pecking order. You may not like the pecking order but it expects so make sure everyone knows the real list in the mind of most recruiters

All the teachers I know, know that this is the case. Its crude but its the way things work.

teacher, the first degree matters because it's the killer. It is the place where you go depending on A levels. If you got CCC you go to an ex poly. If you are As all the way you go to the best place which is why some schools will only hire people from the better universities - it's the gold standard as it were.

The trouble is people don't like this but jabed is right. I am not in teaching although my children's father is and I have paid school fees for 24 years so far with a good few to come, but even in other jobs the first place you do your degree matters hugely and I really do wish schools could point that out. I got a CV just after lunch today and heart just sank (poor chap). It was BCC A levels, mostly Cs GCSEs, 2/1 from Surrey. Now he is not going to get on where he needs to be. If he were mostly As and Durham or Obxridge or Bristol etc and his 2/1 he will be fine. I really don't think schools are telling children enough how important the initial institution is.

Jabed- the top four places in which list? You expect us to believe that every single member of staff at the current school you teach in went to one of four universities? Really?

Jabed:
Billericay Educational Consortium SCITT
646.3
1
University of Oxford
643.8
2
University of Cambridge
636.9
3
The North East Partnership SCITT
623.9
4

Really?

Xenia,

Sorry, my point wan't clear.

I was asking why the first degree of a teacher was more important than where they trained to do their job.

It's like with doctors - is it more important where they did their first degree, or where they trained to be a surgeon?

Jabed- the top four places in which list? You expect us to believe that every single member of staff at the current school you teach in went to one of four universities? Really?

I was discussing with TW2K the teacher training colleges rank order. In terms of teacher training all my colleagues took their PGCE's in one of the four top ranked institutions. You might be able to work out which if you try a little.

As for degrees. They are all at least "Russell Group". There is a strong element of Oxbridge in there.

As I said TW"K - Tes - we all have PGCE within those four. There are two which account for most of us.

Sorry TW2K ( forgot the shift )

Sorry, Jabed. I simply don't believe you.

yes , not Tes. It seems I need a new keyboard. My capital y is coming out a T. Sorry

ET - I really do not care what you believe. You can believe in faries at the bottom of the garden. Thats OK. But it wont change any facts.

And unless you're going to post the name of the school, you'll have to accept that I believe you to be lying.

The interesting thing is WHY you feel the need to tell fibs about this.

So you expect me to believe that, coincidentally, the entire staff of one school trained at one of the current top four training institutions?

ET - I'm certainly not going to tell you where I work, but I've just looked in the 'staff directory' and 90% of the SMT are O&C, and 70% of the general staff are O&C - make of that what you will.....welcome to my world.

I find the idea that every teacher at an institution went to a narrow range of four universitites too . How many teachers are there at your school jabed? Is it prep or secondary?

Xenia and it's not enough to go purely by institution as an employer. The employer (in an academic field at least, and in the City too) will know which courses within each generally competitive university are the most competitive to get into. And they will also have to look at the class of a degree in context, not just as between universities but as between subjects (Maths as opposed to History for example) and with regard to when the degree was awarded - far more Firsts and 2.1's are awarded now, though that may not be true of all institutions.

As usual The Sutton Trust have looked into this, albeit a while ago (2003).

Their report here has the following findings:

"The main qualification of nearly three-quarters of teachers in independent
schools is a subject degree compared with just over 60 per cent of the teachers
in maintained schools.
Teachers in independent schools are more than twice as likely to have been
awarded a first. Over 60 per cent have at least an upper-second compared with
45 per cent of the teachers in maintained schools.
Teachers in independent schools are five times more likely to hold a PhD as
their highest qualification. Nearly a quarter of independent school teachers
have obtained a higher degree, against 16 per cent of teachers in maintained
schools.
Teachers in independent schools are seven times more likely than those in
maintained schools to have graduated from Oxford or Cambridge - 13.0 per
cent against 1.8 per cent. Nearly 30 per cent (29.4 per cent) come from the
leading universities, as ranked by the major league tables, compared with 10.5
per cent in the maintained sector."

ET - Its not exactly rocket science this. Not as rocket science is that complicated. Many teachers train near to where they get jobs or train at their alma mater. In our case......

Oh ok jabed, I thought you meant first degrees. But I'm still interested to know how many teachers are employed by your school and whether it's prep.

shush - that I can believe. 70% means that 30% were not, and I accept that is likely in an independent school.

Jabed is claiming that 100% of teachers at his school trained in one of four places - two are Oxford and Cambridge, but the other two are in Essex and Northumbria.

Jabed - one is in Northumbria, one is in Essex, the third is Oxford, the fourth is Cambridge. How does that fit with "many teachers train near to where they get a job"?

Gelatinous, again, we have become confused about
Highly qualified in a first degree vs
Highly qualified AS TEACHERS...