SAHM or private school for DC(s)

[Gatorade]

I have a 4 month old DD and I am starting to think about what I want to do in relation to going back to work and future school options (these decisions appear to linked as affordability starts to come into the equation).

We could comfortably afford for me to be a SAHM and send DD to a private school (well pre-school nursery first, but then through the private school system), this again would be ok for a second DC. The difficulty would be if we have more than 2 DCs, if we are lucky enough we would like 3 or 4.

If we were to have 3 DCs I would need to work at least 3 to 4 days a week to ensure that we could maintain our lifestyle (which is quite basic really, we are not extravagant people) and fund the school fees from earned income.

I am not too worried about my own future career, I feel I have achieved what I wanted to in terms of work before I had DD and if I don't have a professional career again in the future (if, for example I take 10+ years out of the workplace) this wouldn't concern me.

So my question, what would be more beneficially to my DD and future children, having a SAHM or going to private school?

Metabilis. I don't think too many people are bothered about your glass ceiling. I'm not. I am bothered about what I am doing. I am also visible as a non conventional woman, I don't have to go to work for this though.

If you want/have to work that is fine, I fully support your decision and choice and thank goodness we have choices. However, mine and others choices are no less worthy.

Metta - most mothers by me don't work.
That's great that you changed the way your school does thing for the benefit of the working parents... Oh, but wait... Does that mean that the teachers at the school who are parents now have to do more evening work on top of the teaching during the day? What about their time with their children? What about the TAs of which many go into that sort of job because it will fit round their family and they can still work and set a good example while still being there for families? Hummm

I have read ever single post. Many have been demeaning towards sahm either that thy are damaging their children, setting a poor example, down trodden and stupid or letting the female population down. Not one post as I can recall has questioned a woman's right to work but a few have questioned their right to stay home. I am not going to trawl back through over 600 to pull all of these out as I have too much to do... The loo doesn't clean itself

Housework, that's being working mothers are right so of course no one is going to say women will be fulfilled at home serving chidlren and husbands. They never are. Many hate it and if they don't hate it now they usually regret it.

Surely someone sure in her choice about being a housewife has no problem with being questioned over the wisdom of that choice?

It is in essence a feminist issue and a very very important one for all women. If women take themselves off of the economic ladder that does huge damage with few benefits.

Sarcalogos

"I still cant get over the blaming women for the sexism of men in the workplace. That concept makes me angry."

I don't think that's what's been said though. I think what's been said is that attitudes and sexism in the workplace isn't likely to change if there aren't more women making it an issue which can't be avoided. It's not blaming women, it's saying that unless there are significant numbers of women in the workforce then nothing will change. If we were all at home full time with our children, then what incentive/reason would there be for men to consider their opinions/prejudices and whether their workplace makes it easier or harder for women to be involved?

With regard to whether I'm making a difference by working for myself as opposed to battling it out within someone else's company... I have actually thought long and hard about this, and whether I needed to stay at my old consultancy and fight to change the culture there to make a point.

In the end I decided that it was becoming unsustainable working the way I was, and that my fighting had, thus far, made no difference whatsoever and that it was equally valid to go and set up my own company (even if it's mostly just me at the moment, being only 4 months in) and:

a) be very clear when I'm up in front of clients (which I am regularly) that yes, I am a mother, but that I am still good at what I do, and that while I have structured the way I work to be more available for my children, I still deliver exceptional results, on time and on budget. Which will hopefully change the way they think about the way their own employees work. I'm modelling a different working practice, I hope, and demonstrating that it works as well as, if not better than, a more traditional (outdated) one.

b) if and when I employ another person, or contract out work to another person, I allow them the same measure of flexibility. Many of those I work with are combining work and families too, largely because many of them are women I have known professionally for a number of years, and have children and have also decided that working within the 'traditional' consultancy structure don't give them what they need, professionally or personally.

I tried to fight it from within, but, frankly, it was dispiriting and frustrating, and ultimately I pretty much failed, I admit that. So I've gone about it another way.

Those who say that women who have chosen to work on their own terms, whether working different hours outside the home or working from home, aren't really working or contrinuting or able to make a difference or effect change are just reinforcing the prevalent (often patriarchal) prejudice that unless you're sat in an office X miles from your home/children's school for 80+ hours a week then you're not really in the game... It makes me doubly depressed to see other mothers saying that.

I would have to fundamentally disagree with that and say that the rules of the game need to change... Especially as these days technology is such that location doesn't really matter, in many instances...

db
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Housework. The same happened at our school when a wohm complained about unfairness. I was gutted, because they couldn't see their darling receive prizes we had their prize giving assembly stopped. I don't really go for retribution but the dcs were so upset by the unfairness. It was hilarious seeing them scramble round to find cover when the bad weather forced closure. Those that would usually have stepped in to offer help thought stuff you, as they had acted really selfishly. So the wohm lost out again

'However, I was always brought up by my mum to think that women should support women. And that women who don't face rampant sexism, should stand up and be counted for those that do, because we have more of a voice.

So I do think it behoves us all to fight on for our daughters. And their duaghters.

And whilst I would not say that this means women should not be a SAHMs. I would say that if we do decide to give up work then we really need to consider the impact this has. Scrupulous honesty as opposed to self serving vague declaration sof freedom of choice.

We also need to ask ourselves about how we are bringing up the next generation of DC. Are we saying to them explicity or implicitly that good mothers don't work. Because if we are doing that, we are as guilty as every sexist pig out there of keeping other women in their place.'

Housework, this post leads me to believe you think SAH is damaging to the feminist cause. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

It is not about laying blame, it is about all women taking responsibility to try to ensure that the wrokplace is better for our DDs.

That, I would have thought, is hardly controversial.

Or do some mothers actively seek to make things worse for their DDs. Or do they not give a shit? .

And it's quite easy to make a difference.

1. Support mothers who work. Don't disparage them as less good than SAHMs.
2. Support dads who SAH. Don't disparage a man's ability to do it well.
3. Ensure that our DCs do not take sexism forward into adulthood.

Xenia,I have been fulfilled at home looking after children and husband for 24 years.Yes,we do have a business,but I do not work at it for that many hours during the day.
So what you are saying is just not true.
And I most certainly do not regret it.
Far from it.
I think it has been a privilege.
I appreciate that I have been in a very fortunate position that is not available to many.

On connors post - surely it is just an issue of who is a perfectionist and who is not? i was interviewed once by someone who was seeing lots of successful mothers. She said we are all were fairly laid back and as long as we felt we had done a good enough job at home and at work we were content (this is how I am, although I certainly argue for England that I am the best at what I do in the UK for work...). Nothing will ever be perfect and indeed work and home benefit from parents/workers who are not perfectionists. I have always seen it as a badge of pride that my chidlren might take in a black plastic sack as a costume not some ridiculous mother made thing or expensive bought thing. They still laugh about it now, those that have graduated.

Also why would a child do worse in a maths test if teh mother were away on business? Maths isnm't really something you need to revise the night before (at least we never have revised maths ever). You just learn it as term goes on. Also you wouldn't have been sitting outside feeding them the answers on an ear piece. So why does i9t matter if you're away? Also don't they have a father or a nanny who can ensure they get things done? I'm going abroad on bsuiness this week and they will be fine although we're in some kind of even more laid back than usual phase at present as they are about to change schools so there doesn't even seem to be homework soi t's not onerous.

I think women should not try to be all things to all men and the best balance for everyone is work and home. if a teacher said children had done worse as mummy was away that is very sexist. My sons at school will say if a teacher implies women only cook that men do all the cooking in our house,. We need to stamp out that sexism. Also if you weren't working they woudln't be in such a good school anyway so it is all to the good that you do.

On school things during working hours I don't find that many and as I work for myself sometimes I can go to them or schools arrange something for me on another day. I was in business in Iran when one was on I remember. Even at age 4 our school's parents' evenings were in the evening (although I don't see why schools cannot alter the system to do most of them by skype with just one a year in person these days).

Just to make it clear,my daughter does not just work from an office.She is out and about with the men.Not sure if that makes any difference to what you are all talking about.

Housework- quite simply, you can't pick your child up at 3 from school and have a high-flying job. That is what after-school care is for. 1000s of children use after school care and are absolutely fine.

Incidentally the university professor not only won't be able to pick up her children from school, but also will have had to plan very minutely how late into her late 30s she can leave it to have the babies she wants, knowing that even a few months out of her field could leave her far behind professionally (academia is one of the worst fields to work in for retaining your position).

Basically you cannot have a high-flying job and be with your children every moment they are not at school. The question is, do they actually suffer from that? I used to think so 19 years ago when I had my first, now I actually think not.

sarca you are wrong. But yes, I will forgive you .

What I am saying is that women who step out of the workplace (and I am one) must at least be honest about its consequences. Pretending that our actions takes place in a vaccuum is self delusion and self serving.

That is not to say, that when all things are considered we shouldn't do what is right for our particular family with all its complex and individual machinations.

What it means is that we try to find other ways forward. Other means to ensure that our DDs futures are not blighted.

Good wf list

1. Support mothers who work. Don't disparage them as less good than SAHMs.
2. Support dads who SAH. Don't disparage a man's ability to do it well.
3. Ensure that our DCs do not take sexism forward into adulthood.

Perhaps the stay at homers could also stop suggesting as they often do that parents who work do not bring up their children (they criticise their own husbands by those comments of course but man the God is never to blame of course ever....); and that working mothers don't bond with their babies when they clearly do.

SAHM. being rich doesn't make you happy - it's just an illusion!

No sarcalo I stay at home I don't think it is damaging.

And xenia you are right I would not be for filled if I stayed at home just serving my children and partner. (not a housewife, not married) good job that isn't how it happens in my family. I have no problem being questioned about it. I WANTED to that's my answer I have a problem being attacked for it.

Same way as if I said to a working mum like yourself, tell me what do you do, how does it work and why did you choose it. That is polite and inquisitive. If I said to you that you were neglecting your family and being selfish that is attacking. (by the way I don't think that)

Incidentally, business is not driven by inherent sexism (although apparently it does exist in spadesful). It is driven purely by the desire for profit.

If staff member A is able to provide a 25 hour week, arrives at 9:30 and leaves 2 hours before the end of the working day to pick up their child from school, and staff member B who has no life outside work commitments is able to put in 60 hours a week into the same job including weekends, hours for which they do not bill since very few jobs with prospects are paid hourly, then I think we can all guess which person is most likely producing the most revenue for the company.

Sarca

I'm going to put my head above the parapet and say that yes, if large numbers of women opt to stay at home, and opt out of the workforce for a significant period or permanently, then yes, I believe it probably will be damaging to the feminist cause, and result in fewer choices for our daughters.

On a personal level I can completely understand why women would choose to, and if that they have a right to make those choices as they see fit. And I understand that will the working culture being what it is, some women feel that is the only choice they can make, because the compromises required to stay in their job require too great a sacrifice on other fronts.

But if all women had made the same choice, in the last 100 years, then I and other working mothers would't have been able to make the choices we have to WOH. And I think that would be a tragedy.

The personal is political, as Xenia said, and we all have a duty to consider the effect our choices have on our society as a whole, and working practices and prejudices in particular.

db
xx

Xenia, a parent working doesn't necessarily mean a better school, some sahp's have dcs in good schools too. I know a few. Some of us don't want nannies to ensure they get things done. personally, I would feel like I was missing out on bringing my children up. working may be right for you but not everybody and I don't accept your OPINION that working mothers are better for society. If I did agree with you I'd be doing what you are doing.

Of course it damages women's cause if women don't work. It also means girls have no role models. I have really really been pleased at some of the women in their 30s and 40s who have small children my daughter has worked for and how nicely she decribes how wonderful these women are. I think that's great. If those women weren't there and no women were at the top what message does that send out to daughters?

If we are breeding daughters to stay home unless they are infertile then surely at 14 they shoudl start cookery and housekeeping and babycare and then leave at 16 for some fashion, finishing off if they want to snare a rich husband and then start baby making at 18 whichi s when women are best suited for it in many ways. Why bother wasting time on A levels and degress if your life witll be nappies and keeping a husband happy and cleaving only unto you?

duch said

"Basically you cannot have a high-flying job and be with your children every moment they are not at school. The question is, do they actually suffer from that? I used to think so 19 years ago when I had my first, now I actually think not."

Absiolutely (and I am more than happy 27 years into being a parent to say I know they don't suffer). We have tried all sorts of combinations over the years and what is interesting is how little the differecnes had much impact. We bent over backwards to keep our first daily nanny for 10 years, tolerating a bit of mess and her bringing 2 babies to work after 2 maternity leaves because of the "bond". I suspect had we just replaced her it would have had no impact on the children's emotions at all because they were so busy with school and 2 involved parents and their friends but I felt it mattered very much at the time.

To get the chance to bring up what is almost a second family having brought up a first is lovely for women like I am wqho manage it and it gives you a sense of perspective and you enjoy it more. It feels like the wisdom of being a grandparent but with the advantages of being parent. It is usually fathers who get that chance in having a second family as they then marry a younger second wife but because I had our first 3 so young I am in this category. Anyway I'd better get back to the work I'm doing.

But duchesse, what if staff member A is:
a) more experienced and more productive in the time they are at work
b) doing 25 hours a week in the office and a further 35 from home in the evenings/at weekends

A lot of those, in my experience, who have nothing but work in their lives and are happy to spend 60+ hours a week in the office have no problem wasting a large part of that time fannying about not working productively because it doesn't matter what time they leave.

I may have not spent as many hours in the studio as some of my male counterparts, but i know for sure that I was a hell of a lot more productive and focussed when I was there because my hours were finite and precious...

And what profit is there for a company to lose 50% of a workforce that they have trained/invested in who have great skills and experience because they can't make it work for their families?

It shouldn't be about presenteeism, these days. We have to be beyond that by now and evaluate productvity/effectiveness/value for money in other ways.

db
xx

@designer I definitely buck the presenteeism trend a lot of the time. My colleagues are under no illusion what comes first, most of the time. And it's really not sitting in an office for the sake of it. But I'm in the fortune position that I made my reputation long ago. And when I have to step up, I do. I am not deliriously happy about being in Malta today since both my girls have music exams (right now as it happens). But DD1 prefers me to be out of the country for stuff like that cos it's been 'lucky' in the past. DH would prefer me to be in the country if not in their face, so that if theres a thing (as there was once before - a timetabling mix up) then I could sort it remotely if I was in London, not so easy from Malta. But ultimately as Xenia said upthread - I can't do the test for them. So they get on with it. Hopefully.

Xenia - my partner has worked for women for his whole career. 5 separate jobs so far. 4 of these since having children and all 4 have been mothers. Not one has been supportive of his family life they want Skype calls at bath time or phone calls at tea time. Emails last thing on a Friday with Monday morning deadlines. One of these actually turned down his application for flexi working by making up a new duty for him so it ment they could turn him down on the grounds it would not be viable.

Metabilis3. Hope your girls do well in their exams. My dd has hers in 2 weeks. I unfortunately have to take her as dh has taken work for that day, the joys of tuning violins.

I did too, metabilis3 but one of the most frustrating things was that even if I was working til the wee hours, sending emails at 1am because a deadline had hit (and often because a 60 hour a weeker hadn't solved something they should have, so they ask the more experienced, part-timer to fix it) because I wasn't sat at my desk, in the studio, it was like I hadn't been working... Even when the results showed otherwise.

Presenteeism is widespread, stupid, counter productive, and discriminatory, and we need to change it.

db
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