Does it matter whether the pizza guy has GCSE Latin?

[PooshTun]

By the time your DC gets to 14 it should be obvious whether he is academic or not. If he isn't then why should he be expected to sit through 2 years of Latin, German, English literature etc only to get a D or E?

Wouldn't you rather he spent the next two years doing something that will help him get a job? And if the kid is struggling with English then shouldn't this be the school's focus as opposed to getting the kid to study German or French?

The education authorities (and some MNetters) seem to be of the opinion that ALL school leavers should leave school with a well rounded education. That is a great thought if you have a kid who can't decide whether to study geography or Latin or Egyptology at university.

But with some kids they are not academic and they won't be going to Uni. They would benefit greatly from a two year course that would prepare them for the work place as opposed to studying subjects which somebody somewhere has decided that is necessary in order for a person to be a 'well rounded' person. Some people's main concern is first get a job THEN work towards to being what someone else regards as being a well rounded person.

Well, non academic children won't be taking Latin so your point is kind of lost.

If you want to be pedantic then feel free to go through the list of GCSE options, pick another one (French perhaps) and where you see me mention 'Latin' replace with whatever.

There. Does your world make sense now?

Moving pass Her Pedantic-ness's unhelpful comments, the non academic kid will need to choose x number of subjects. He is good with his hands so DT is in. He likes messing around with computers is in. With a few exceptions, what remains favours academic kids but he has no other choices.

Am I the only one who thinks that this kid would be better off learning how to operate and maintain complicated machinery then learning about 18th century poets?

My dh works at a school for students on the autistic spectrum. Part of their cirriculum is teaching the young people French. His class consisted of three students, all of which are non-verbal and unable to communicate in english

I agree that those that perform well in a subject should carry them through GCSEs and Alevels and drop the subjects they will not pass. Even maths.

My mum said this about 20 years ago when I was in school, I wasn't academic at all. After much discution with the school they did let me not do a language as I struggled enough with English but the gcse years were a total waste of time (they only let me sit 4 in the end) and I only did well when I went to collage after 4 years of working at a rubbish job. Did computing and got a really good job.

Totally agree. Just because someone is not academic does not mean they are not bright or capable of greatness so why make them follow a road that will not benifit them.

But a lot of subjects, especially language, don't just have academic merit.

it might matter to the pizza delivery person..

but yes, i agree the general point that people do know what they enjoy and what they can do best at by 14, and forcing extra subjects in just because someone else thinks they are essential doesn't help.

i think the love of the current and prev government for the baccalaureate overlooked the fact that many youngsters really struggle with carrying all those subjects, and some come over here to do A levels just to avoid it!

But most schools DO offer an alternative vocational curriculum in KS4 - often day release at a nearby FE college. Our leafy suburban comp offers childcare, halth and beauty, car mechanics and catering for example to the non-academic kids alongside key skills in the classroom such as Maths, ICT and English.

So i am confused by your post and other posts of yours

jobs change and people change In the 60s you would teach people how to mend a car, these skills are now obselete as cars are built in completely different ways. The best vocational education does not teach someone how to do a specific job (this is often best learnt out of the class room anyway) but to teach them how to learn new things and not be afraid of something different. It does not matter what they learn so long as they learn something new and their brain and interest is engaged. Yes sitting in the class room bored listening to some one talk about Milton is useless, but so is sitting in the back of computer lab while someone explains how to use excell. Just teach them well and engage them

twitchy - Not everybody's kid goes to a 'leafy suburban comp' :)

Titchy - mine arn't in secondary so have no idea what is offered now. I do know our local high school offers btecs instead of or as well as a levels but I didn't know schools did that at gcse. Is this on top of gcse's or are thy able to not do them at all?

oops. sorry for the name typo

"jobs change and people change In the 60s you would teach people how to mend a car, these skills are now obselete as cars are built in completely different ways."

Must get me one of those non-breakdown cars

wishes I'd learned Welding instead of Geography. Would have been more useful and more interesting.

And I'm about as 'academic' as they come.

Do you actually have a child in secondary school?

If you do, it sounds like they are in the wrong school.

Like some mneters have said there are schools that offer more vocational alternatives. Our school doesn't but would offer the alternative of using two blocks for gcse English say, in order to give more time to the core subjects, rather than get a huge bundle of maybe low grade gcses.

Not all pupils that are not academic are 'good with their hands'
Such sweeping generalisations!
Why shouldn't we want a well-educated workforce, regardless of what type of work they carry out?
In fact, the pizza guys [sic] in my area have all learned a foreign language- they are universally immigrants with English as a 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th) language.
Skills used in acquiring languages are separate from those required for academic study I believe.

Lol @ the non breakdown cars!

When I was at school, all did roughly the same gcses, then you either went to sixth form (academic), out to work (or dole) or to the college of FE, that had a garage, a hairdresser, a crèche, and a restaurant and offered largely vocational skill based courses with relevant experience.

I do think 14 would be a bit young to really start stopping academic subjects in favour of vocation.

housework not saying they don't break down but saying that you need to mend them in different ways, a mechanic from the 1960s would have very little idea about where to start with a car built last year

Various posters have made the point that education is supposed to teach people to think as opposed to teaching them practical skills.

Brings me back to the point about how some people believe that being well rounded people trumps having vocational skills.

Up to about 10 years ago my employer would employer grads with degrees in Philosophy and English Literature for example. Today, faced with the demands of a highly competive world we look for grads with degrees in computer science, maths, foreign languages and economics

The world of the Gifted Generalist is dead.

No it doesn't mtter whether the pizza delivery man has GCSE Latin. But it does matter that he hs. Good education. For his own individual good, and for the good of society at large. From a position of pure unenlightened self interest, society needs well educated citizens for loads of reasons, including, but not exclusively, in no particular order, the following.

Well educated people are more likely than uneducated ones to-

Be able to engage in the democratic process in an informed way,

Value and support their own children's education

Feel they have a stake in society and therefore feel inclined to contribute to it in both formal and informal ways

Be less likely to be driven towards crime and anti social behaviour.

Witchwithallthetrimmings

I think a 1960's machanic would have no problem with my old banger :)

I strongly suspect ALL comprehensives offer a vocational stream - not just my leafy suburban one (the point I was making when I added in leafy and suburban was that it's a school which is strong academically and it still mamanges to run a vocational programme).

The kids on the vocational stream DO study some GCSEs - Maths English ICT and maybe one or two others, but they're not expected to leave with A* or A grades. Cs at best in the basics.

PooshTun do yuo actually have kids at secondary?

Why limit their options at 14? Until they leave school they should be able to access all of the syllabus, with particular choices made based on preference and aptitude. Then they can do the skills stuff when they leave school and as a hobby while at school. Unless you think leaving age should be lowered, or the only point of education is to provide workforce.

Seeker... Define well educated?

The op wasn't talking about taking them out of the education system altogether but putting them on a path more suited to their abilities or interests.

For self esteem purposes I would have thought it is far more beneficial for someone to succeed in an area of interest/talent than to fail.

I know that all through my schooling I considered myself stupid and rubbish at everything. (appart from Maths) and it took a long time to regain this confidence. I am not stupid, I am not un educated I am simply not academic.

"Not all pupils that are not academic are 'good with their hands'
Such sweeping generalisations!"

My point is that non academic kids should be presented with more vocational options but if you want to pick away and focus on the fact that I mentioned Latin or kids that are good with their hands then don't let me stop you.