Does it matter whether the pizza guy has GCSE Latin?

[PooshTun]

By the time your DC gets to 14 it should be obvious whether he is academic or not. If he isn't then why should he be expected to sit through 2 years of Latin, German, English literature etc only to get a D or E?

Wouldn't you rather he spent the next two years doing something that will help him get a job? And if the kid is struggling with English then shouldn't this be the school's focus as opposed to getting the kid to study German or French?

The education authorities (and some MNetters) seem to be of the opinion that ALL school leavers should leave school with a well rounded education. That is a great thought if you have a kid who can't decide whether to study geography or Latin or Egyptology at university.

But with some kids they are not academic and they won't be going to Uni. They would benefit greatly from a two year course that would prepare them for the work place as opposed to studying subjects which somebody somewhere has decided that is necessary in order for a person to be a 'well rounded' person. Some people's main concern is first get a job THEN work towards to being what someone else regards as being a well rounded person.

not missing from schools Grimma - from Gove's thinking. All schools want what is best for each individual, but we are not judged on that, we are told that every child does not matter any more only the headline figures and the need to only think about the brightest; forget about the rest

I think schools do that pretty well actually. The government on the other hand...

I'm pretty surprised too that people are saying Physics and Chemistry are not essential (and yet Biology is..? ), and the usual position is that the children of MN must do triple Science, and this must be insisted on, as nothing less will do. Both positions a bit daft, IMO.

apologies for the posts that sound like I am on a political mission but after another round of discussions today as to options/tables/OFSTED that are not focused on the actual student we serve I am in a delicate state of mind!

x post with cricketballs, who obviously has been having the same conversations as me...

Your pizza delivery person is quite likely, in present economic climate, to be the person with a good degree from a good university who can't get a job!
DS had a good science degree from a RG university and the world wasn't queuing up for his services-the real world was tough and that was before the recession!

I'm sure most teachers do want to consider the needs of individuals, but - while Gove is undoubtedly making it worse - schools have been failing some pupils for more than the last couple of years.

Your pizza person may decide once they get to about 25yrs that education was a good thing and they want to advance- much simpler if they have had a reasonable education in the first place.

It depends on the child.

DS1 who is dyslexic was expected to do latin at school until the professor who did his assessment pointed out to them that expecting him to do latin was the educational equivalent of making a child with a club foot run cross country .

He stopped doing latin, which he couldnt do at all and since then his confidence and his attainment in everything else has soared.

seeker - "Well my ds will be starting at a high school in September where he will start in the top 15/20 academically. The school has a massive range of vocational opportunities which I hope he will be interested in. The school has assured me that, if he does his bit, he will also get a clutch of as and a*s"

Standby for another you-are-so-contradictory post :)

You keep going on about how bad the high school / GS model is and how high school school kids are at a disadvantage. Now Shock! Horror! you are going on about this brilliant high school with lots of opportunities and about a son that is predicted A and A* :o :o :o

i think the point is that having vocational classes and provision doesn't mean you can't also have children getting A and A*s. However, it would still be better if you didn't have the context of this being a school from which the top 23% (as measured on a day) have been creamed off.

Cecily - "think we can all see her point but it must be quite an unusual school that offers Latin to pupils who are not doing very well at English"

If a school reckons that you aren't capable of passing the higher paper in a specific subject then they will put you are in for the lower paper. Apart from that ,I don't think schools interfere in your actual choice of subjects.

Having said that, my DCs are at highly academic indies. If the teacher thinks that a child isn't going to do well in a particular subject then they will have a quiet word with the parents. Call me a cynic but I suspect its more because they don't want their league table scores being dragged down.

so, nothing about wanting them to get the best possible results for a more limited number of subjects then Poosh?

"A pretty unusual student who could fail English and pass Latin, too."

I don't know how he managed that either. Having said that, a D isn't that far from a Fail so its not a case of him being a regualr B/C student.

I suspect he scrapped a D on one and narrowly tipped himself into a Fail on the other.

Have you ever considered actually commenting on what people sy, not what you think they've said/want them to have said?

Yes, my dd, if all goes well, will get good GSCEs. And so he bloody well should, he is academically very bright and absurdly privileged. If he doesn't, it will be his fault.

But the vast majority of his school mates will not be in his position. The school serves an area of significant social disadvantage with many parents who are not in a position either financially or psychologically to provide their children with the support mine will get. For many of these children the only hope they have is school- and if school tells them they are "vocational material" they will have no way of knowing whether that's actually the case or not.

"By the time your DC gets to 14 it should be obvious whether he is academic or not" - yes in some cases that's true. But 14 year olds vary hugely in terms of maturity.

DS1 was just about average at that age - keeping his head above water but not really interested, did the bare minimum of work etc. After a long hard few years he matured, went to University, got a First, is now doing a MA. Someone could so easily have said to him at 14 "You're clearly not bothered with academia - go learn something else instead" and all that academic potential it turned out he did have would have been lost.

So you can't have such a broad-brush approach - keep giving them options, so more options are available to them when they really do know what they want. They're not always there at 14.

"a pizza deliverer is entitled to an intellecutal life if s/he wishes"

And that is why God invented public libraries.

Why can't your children teach themselves from public libraries, then PooshTun?

Public libraries. I see. So you tell them at 14 they're doing woodwork and nothing else, and then when they're 24 and feel like a challenge, with their self-esteem obviously undented, they're going to go the public library (if it still exists by then) and get out Virgil are they?

"so, nothing about wanting them to get the best possible results for a more limited number of subjects then Poosh?"

Well, in the case of BIL he would be in a better position career wise if he had better results in a more limited number of subjects.

Somebody, somewhere has decided, like you, that one size fits all ie we should give ALL pupils a well rounded education. In the case of my BIL, the system did him no favours. The phrase jack of all trades, master of none springs to mind

Please note the now three categories of education that Poosh proposes.... 'highly academic indies', the 'academic' stream and the 'vocational' stream.

Geography, like physics, is another of those subjects that its pretty useful to know - you learn about things like why the weather is as it is, which impacts on things like flooding and drought which impact on our everyday lives even in this country, let alone others. And being able to understand the basics of, say, reading a map is also pretty useful, even if all you do with it is become a pizza delivery guy.

What I would really like to know is what stopped Poosh's BiL doing something vocational after he left school anyway? You can do that sort of thing at 6thform college and get help to get the skills/ qualifications in subjects like English and Maths anyway.

"Why can't your children teach themselves from public libraries, then PooshTun?"

They do so in yer face seeker :o After school they go to the public library to use the books and Internet to 'teach themselves'. Either DP or myself will pick them up on our way home from work

So why don't they just get their whole educations from the public library? After all, if the pizza man can do it......

I think what Poosh wants is a return to the 11+. Make a decision for a child by testing them on a random day which will affect the rest of their life - get it wrong and it's tough shit, unless they have a well-stocked library at the end of the road.

They go to the public library when was that, sorry? Instead of school, did you say? As an equal and adequate alternative to their 'academic independent' schools? Or was it AFTER they've been in school, being educated?

hassled- what, like we have in Kent?