Does it matter whether the pizza guy has GCSE Latin?

[PooshTun]

By the time your DC gets to 14 it should be obvious whether he is academic or not. If he isn't then why should he be expected to sit through 2 years of Latin, German, English literature etc only to get a D or E?

Wouldn't you rather he spent the next two years doing something that will help him get a job? And if the kid is struggling with English then shouldn't this be the school's focus as opposed to getting the kid to study German or French?

The education authorities (and some MNetters) seem to be of the opinion that ALL school leavers should leave school with a well rounded education. That is a great thought if you have a kid who can't decide whether to study geography or Latin or Egyptology at university.

But with some kids they are not academic and they won't be going to Uni. They would benefit greatly from a two year course that would prepare them for the work place as opposed to studying subjects which somebody somewhere has decided that is necessary in order for a person to be a 'well rounded' person. Some people's main concern is first get a job THEN work towards to being what someone else regards as being a well rounded person.

Well I'm cool that you're cool theoriginal.

But I still don't think it's the best way to achieve targeted excellence...

Well I'm seeing targeted excellence happen and I think that's valid. Also, you can have teachers in comprehensives who do indeed get to focus on the lower sets because that is their forte, and teachers who get top and sixth form groups. That's how they actually do it.

I suspect theoriginal that our definitions differ.

Well what is yours?

The Latin pizza guy is a real person - he's my youngest BIL. He chose Latin because it was the least suckish subject available after he crossed off the subjects he really hated.

I don't know how he managed it but he failed his English but got a D in Latin :o All office jobs ask for English so a job on the Sainsbury fish counter was the best he could do upon leaving school. Money isn't great hence the part time pizza gig.

His mum's opinion was that if the school had focused on his English instead of wasting his time with Latin then her son would at least have an English GCSE to his name instead of something useless (her word) like Latin.

I can see her point. She didn't want a son with a well rounded education. She wanted an education that would help get him a good office job.

It seems sensible to me TheOriginalSteamingNit. We are all different and we waste so much talent by only valuing the academic and making all DCs jump through the same narrow hoop.
I would have every DC at the same school at 11yrs and streamed for different subjects. By 14yrs they would have decided which path to take and with discussion between the DC, the parent and the teachers they either go for academic, technical, practical or vocational or a mixture. They can all be in the same building. It could be stretched to HE and those who wanted to just come in for certain lessons and it could be open in holidays, weekends and evenings for those who wanted hobbies, classes,lectures, sports etc-and that might well be adults.
It would be for the entire community.
Obviously it would need more teachers-they wouldn't be expected to cover more hours than they do now!

Ok, I will tell you mine. It means expecting that a child will get the clutch of a*s of which she is capable, expecting her to work hard for her, imbuing her with the belief that she should work hard, and wanting to know what went wrong if she doesn't. It means stating these expectations clearly, and showing where she is in terms of achieving them and what she needs to do.

It means, at the same time as you do that, you don't close your doors to the children who won't. It means if they are capable of bs or cs, you work your damnedest for that too.

It can, and does happen. And not just in leafy comps that people move to get into.

At the moment you do have to exert pressure. My dyslexic DS was already doing French and in year 8 he had to add German -because they all did. I pointed out that it was fairly ridiculous to make a DC who couldn't manage English do 2 foreign languages! He then got extra English when the rest did the German and I am pleased to say that he managed to get the necessary C grade in English.
This was after the French teacher was keeping him in to learn the spellings that he had failed to learn at home. I again rang up and said that since he had enormous trouble with English spellings she could keep him in all term and he would still get them wrong!

Yeah, it's a partnership alright.

Anyway, i am going out now and will try very hard not to annoy myself by checking mn on my phone! I may start a thread in the morning.

My DD started vocational studies at 14 and Maths and English GCSE. She studied health and beauty and hairdressing. A year after leaving school she is a level 3 hair dresser.

She had a wonderful sense of achievement, I think she has an above average talent for hair dressing, and she had always been below average throughout her schooling.

So yanbu, but it happens already.

Well my ds will be starting at a high school in September where he will start in the top 15/20 academically. The school has a massive range of vocational opportunities which I hope he will be interested in. The school has assured me that, if he does his bit, he will also get a clutch of as and a*s at Check this thread in 5 years time!

I teach in a very much non leafy comprehensive and we offer the full range of vocational to academic.

I teach a level students who will get an A and year 7 students who cannot read. The skills required for good teaching at both ends are not as wildly different as Bonsoir suggests I think. It isn't enough to be 'brilliant' at one end any more than it is enough to be 'patient' at the other. Actually, you have to be brilliant at both ends of the spectrum. Teaching children who have learning difficulties, teaching* them, is pretty demanding. IME, the cleverest teachers are the ones who are best with top and bottom sets.

the cleverest teachers are the ones who are best with top and bottom sets.

Very true.

^His mum's opinion was that if the school had focused on his English instead of wasting his time with Latin then her son would at least have an English GCSE to his name instead of something useless (her word) like Latin.

I can see her point. She didn't want a son with a well rounded education. She wanted an education that would help get him a good office job.^

I think we can all see her point but it must be quite an unusual school that offers Latin to pupils who are not doing very well at English.

whilst there are a large number of schools that do offer vocational subjects/college placements etc due to Gove's thinking that we need to get back to the 1950s this is being reduced at a spectacular pace.

The qualifications they gain will no longer be as valid on the league tables that the majority of mn's hold so dear....for the current year 9s it has to be 5 subjects in the A*-C magic number and they can only include 2 vocational qualifications within that.

In the new inspection framework, the IT department can not be graded anything more than satisfactory if they do not offer academic AND vocational (therefore the school can not achieve a higher rating) so that's one subject already having to be included in this 2 vocational.

The blame for the 'not bothering' with the less academic lies solely at Gove's feet and in a few years we will be paying the price after we have thrown the majority of young people to the sidelines as they are not 'academic' and therefore not worthy of educating......

I am astonished by this thread. People are suggesting that secondary schools don't need to teach physics to students who are not going to go down an academic path because it is 'pointless.'

So you don't want people who are going to be electricians, plumbers (which involves heating systems) and mechanics to not be educated to the standard of a 16 year old in Physics.

Seriously? Physics - the subject that at GCSE covers the basics of things like heating and energy transfer, energy efficiency in buildings, electricity, electrical appliances and electronics.

And quite apart from that, doesn't everyone need to know these things? Unless you want to have the world's biggest electricity bill or sit in a freezing cold house, or go around electrocuting yourself because you have no basic scientific knowledge.

A pretty unusual student who could fail English and pass Latin, too.

It would be incredibly difficult to pass Latin and fail English wouldn't it? Latin GCSE is based on reading excerpts of texts in Latin, then discussing them in English in a similar way to the way you would discuss a text in an English Literature GCSE exam. To pass Latin you would have to have good English skills. And part of the mark in Latin is based on your spelling, punctuation and grammar in written English. But I suppose you could spend so much time learning vocab that you never got around to reading the English set texts.

electricians, plumbers, mechanics need to be at least a C grade in order to progress on their qualifications as they are certified trades people and have to continue in their PD throughout their career (H&S card every couple of years in order to work on site is one example). The question raised by the op was of those whose abilities will not allow them to access these highly skilled trades

There are many academic students who couldn't manage to be an electrician, plumber or mechanic- they are all highly skilled - not the same as serving pizza!

I'm not arguing against the OP. I am taking issue with the posters who've said physics is pointless for people who are not going to study it as a subject beyond school. It clearly isn't.

I would have thought physics was essential for most DCs.

too fecking right it does
firstly, a pizza deliverer doesn't have to say a pizza deliverer
secondly, a pizza deliverer is entitled to an intellecutal life if s/he wishes
thirdly, because we all fecking matter and you can't give up on people cos it might seem to be easier in the short term

I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this thought... perhaps what's missing from some schools is in part an instilling of a work ethic. Taking pride in finding what you can do and doing it well, and not being made to feel you're worth less if that thing is building a wall rather than balancing equations.