Tiffin Schools Admission Arrangements

[tiffinboys]

Tiffin Schools (Boys & Girls) have issued their Determined Admission Arrangements for 2013-14. Boths Schools have decided to ignore pleas from the local community and opted to continue with Open Selection.

Though most of the grammar schools have catchment/proximity rules, some even going to the extent of denying applications to sit for their entrance test in breach of Grenwich ruling, Tiffins would continue open selection policies. Only handful of children from Kingston & surrounding areas get places in Tiffins. Most of the places go to the children living at very very far away places, eg. Harrow, Southall, Greenford.

Grammar schools from Bromley (St. Olave & Newstead Wood), Redbridge (Woodford County & Ilford County) or Barnet/Herts (DAO & Latymer) or Slough (Langley) would not allow out-of-catchment children to even apply for admission tests. Other schools like Kent grammars would only give places to children living near to the School. Some schools have most of the places for catchment area (Nonsuch, Wallington etc.).

This year, Reading grammars (Kendrik & Reading) and Chelmsford grammars (both boys & girls) have changed their over-subscription criteria from 100% open selection to 100% catchment and 80% catchment respectively.

It is high time that children from Kingston and surrounding areas also get level playing field. Until all grammar schools are 100% open selection, it is fair that some priority is restored for these children.

We have therefore proposed that Tiffins give 80% places on the basis of proximity to the Schools (or such other Centre point in the Borough, as previously proposed by the LA) to those children who pass the entrance tests. Other 20% may be given on open selection.

This proposal complies with Greenwich/Rotherham rulings. We are aware that it would take lot of persuation for the Governors of these school to accept this proposal. We call upon all parents from Kingston & Surrounding areas t write to the Tiffin Schools in support of this proposal and copy these to your local MPs and Councillors.

@tiffinboys. It is not just changing; it is declining year on year as the number of applicants rises. Agree...
Judging by the turnout at GC open evening tonight; parents queuing a good way up through Ham village to get in - that such schools appear to be responding proactively to parent/DCs needs, aspirations and concerns - whereas Tiffins by comparison are standing still; i could quite perceive a situation not too far distant, whereupon representation of local children at the two grammar academies plummets to an unprecedented low.
If indeed Tiffins do want any local children at all as part of their intake, then they have to offer some kind of olive branch - but sadly i do not think they give a damn. [Sufficiently high HTU-number from 'anywhere' will do as proof of 'brightness'.]

@Kenlee. Tiffin is not a local school, nor should it any more be regarded as a Kingston school - how LA can claim its results is quite frankly beyond me (they should be discounted); just happens to be located in KT2. Consider it a freak accident of geography - plate tectonics perhaps - that makes it poorly accessible to an ever increasing proportion of its intake year on year.

As an aside... it would be nice if some of these evidently worthy boys from far afield and who fought so valiantly to secure a much coveted Tiffin School place could actually turn up on time for early morning rugby practice - this is mandatory, if you are picked. Rather than languishing somewhere 'in between' on public transport; since this is a regular occurrence, it rather lets the side down [...and doubtless accounts for some of the less than remarkable TS sporting results].

A quick clarification on what tiggytape has nw said twice because it is inaccurate. Richmond did not "give priority to children at Richmond schools". It had certain primary schools which were "link schools" for certain secondaries and this status gave applicants from those primary schools priority in admission. My daughter's primary, in Richmond, was not a "link school" and thus those children missed out on some Richmond secondaries too. It was a completely flawed system but please don't suggest it worked to the advantage of all Richmond children because that is factually incorrect.

So basically the fault does not lie with Tiffin school but the local council. In which the residents of Kingston should ask them to discount the places available at Tiffins. Then force the council to create schools for locals. Im sure that the demographic of the people of Kingston will most likely outstrip Tiffins school as it has been suggested that due to foreign elements from outside Kingston it is declining...

I see this as a win win....may I also add to ask the local council not to fund the school. Use the funding for the local school..

1. LAs don't fund Academies. In view of increasing demand for school places, they are very happy to have washed their hands off the previously maintained schools.

1. All state schools are local schools (with the exception of rare boarding schools or special need schools - very few in numbers). Confusion created by Greenwich judgement was clarified through Rotherham judgement. Except for handful of schools, the admission arrangements are based on distance or catchment area, irrespective of school being comprehensive or grammar. Only difference between Grammar & Comprehensive is Selection. Selection was never meant to be on national basis. Kent (30+ grammars), Bucks (14), Reading (2), Redbridge (2), Newstead, Langley and number of others have 100% distance or catchment policies. Many others like Chelmsford (2 grammars), Slough (2 besides Langley), Sutton (both girls grammars) have between 80 to 50% places on distance or catchment. The nearby borough Sutton the catchment is hardly 3 to 4 miles.

The distance policy is the best approach for Tiffins. We even proposed to them to take top 450 children in their tests and then apply distance basis. They will get most able student and the admission area would be approx. 7 miles. This would be a large enough area for children to travel to school and for school to have pool of able and bright children.

@tiffinboys. We even proposed to them to take top 450 children in their tests and then apply distance basis. They will get most able student and the admission area would be approx. 7 miles. This would be a large enough area for children to travel to school and for school to have pool of able and bright children.

I am very interested to know. What was the schools reply to this?

DS2 ranked 235 and at less than 1 km from the school gates would most certainly have joined his brother at Tiffin School this yr had such criteria been applied. With 450 through & stage 2 testing - English & Maths, would have been the same - yet the school was adamant in its view he was 'way to low' ability (despite level 5/6 SATs). I know of a good many local boys who scored lower than him in the past (Dempsey era) and went through the school with perfectly success - one in particular i can call to mind - scored a 'pathetic 119' to get in - yet went on to Balliol, Oxford and left with a first!!!

...only difference between now & then are the entrance criteria; there are plenty of local boys with the talent and desire who could contribute much to Tiffin School community and assure the schools continued success.

So basically the argument isnt about distance. Its about allowing your child to get into the school that has a good reputation. Im sorry to step on toes but the distance argument is really not valid as it is not practised by Tiffin school.

Why not go to another local school? I am sure with his ability he will be able to get into the top stream and carry onto university. So why the intent to goto Tiffin. Im also sure a bright lad is able to travel too.

If I couldn't get in then why not search for alternatives rather than just bemoan the fact that you were not one of the lucky ones?...

Again Im sorry this offends but Tiffin school has made it perfectly clear on their admission. If your want in you have to play by their rules. It is sad your child didnt make the grade but its not because he is not bright. Its just that some brighter kid who performed better on the day got a better result.

Well at least now your child has the fun of being the top boy in a comprehensive

Any one of those would thrive at grammar school and any difference in score between number 180 and number 230 on the rankings is likely to be down to an unlucky guess, a misread question or running out of time on the last ones.

Any one of those would also thrive in a top set of a comprehensive.

I don't know enough about the law around grammar schools and who determines selection criteria - but isn't the right thing for Kingstonians to do to get a good local school for all children (no matter what ability). Given the LA is no longer setting the criteria - who does? Presumably the governors: how do you take over or persuade the governors?

Campaign for the end of selection!

I believe that there are plans for a new free school next door to Tiffins Girls.

There will always be winners and losers when you have selective educations. Parents will always want the entry criteria malipulated to suit them and their families.

Simple solution to this problem is that Law should require all selective schools to have same criterio. It is either 'open selection' or distance policy, so some one should not say it is manipulation if Kingston parents want same policy that has been adopted by the rest of the grammars (except handful).

It is not right that while children living near to Tiffins in Kingston/Richmond etc can't have same possibilities in other grammars, all over the world can apply and have equal possibilities when it comes to Tiffins.

Well if there is such a large number not being able to attend Tiffin school due to thier admission criteria.

I think there is only one way forward....

Build a new school.. lobby your local council.

The new school being of the criteria that Kingston residents wants.

I just think it is silly to lobby the school as it will not change its criteria .

I understand that it must be horrible to know your child did not get in....but there is a cut off and Tiffin school is using that cut off rightly or wrongly.

In retrospect it is fair....that they have only taken into account entrance based in score.

If we really wanted to be fair we could throw our toys out of the pram....make the school a non selective local comprehensive...

Then all the Children of Kingston can use the facilities..

This is why so many Kingston parents (and London/Surrey) are forced to choose private education over state - I don't have the percentage but I guess it wouldn't be too far away from the 37% of children privately educated in Richmond borough next door and certainly a million miles away from the 7% of privately educated children nationally.

"This is why so many Kingston parents (and London/Surrey) are forced to choose private education over state - I don't have the percentage but I guess it wouldn't be too far away from the 37% of children privately educated in Richmond borough next door and certainly a million miles away from the 7% of privately educated children nationally."

No one is forced to choose private eduation over state! In general state secondaries in Kingston have reasonable results. In Kingston there are a lot of extremely wealthy families who don't want their little darling mixing with the likes of Ryan from the council estate. If wealthy middle class parents were prepared to send their children to the state comprehensives then they would improve rapidly.

Actually tiffinBoys children in Kingston can apply to schools all over the UK.

Most schools are comprehensive and allow entry on distance. Plenty of schools in, say, Wandsworth, are under subscribed, and you will find it easy to get in if you applied. Quite an easy train ride from Kingston, in fact. Not too far to walk from Clapham Junction when you get there.

If wealthy middle class parents were prepared to send their children to the state comprehensives then they would improve rapidly.

Yes the debate is not about the quality of education (or only partly so) - it is mainly about keeping the James away from the Ryans.

A good school is those that keep the Ryans out (state grammar or indie).

It's not the 'wealthy' parents I'm worried about! I suppose you've got the 'chicken and egg' situation re comprehensives improving just as you have with public transport (if less people drove then public transport would be better).

@tiggytape. Thanks for clarifying how the Tiffin entrance exam actually works. There are so many boys bunched up on each mark, that of course taking top 450 then applying distance criteria makes perfect sense. There would be no drop in performance across the school whatsoever - in fact i would wager that it would improve. If anyone really really wanted their DCs in Tiffins they could also move into 'catchment'; apparently many are doing so after their child has successfully gained entry to these schools. Top 450 children locally ought to be able to go to their local grammar school. It's just common sense - taking one child from here, there and everywhere does nothing to solve the issues that these parents may face - if they need good schools in their area then they must petition and build some.

@kenlee. the notion that DC was outsmarted by 'the brighter kids', and this is the reason he failed to get into TS is pretty fanciful; maybe - in an ideal world, but this is Tiffins entrance we are talking about - the 'successful' candidates are, by and large, those who have been tutored to destruction over a long period of time. Makes about 5% difference in terms of performance (source: Dr Dempsey, former Tiffin School head), but as he alluded - that is the difference between securing a place and - as you put it - not making the grade. AT the margins - +5% you are in / -5% you are out. Applying distance criteria to top 450 would bring some degree of sanity back into the process.

But since to get into the top 450 you have to be tutored to destruction anyway, does it really matter if its distance or a little bit of +/-5% on the day element (ie a lottery).

At least the "lottery" way (ie leaving distance out of it) means you won't risk catchment house price inflation as you get around the "good" (ie middle class) comprehensives.