Tiffin Schools Admission Arrangements

[tiffinboys]

Tiffin Schools (Boys & Girls) have issued their Determined Admission Arrangements for 2013-14. Boths Schools have decided to ignore pleas from the local community and opted to continue with Open Selection.

Though most of the grammar schools have catchment/proximity rules, some even going to the extent of denying applications to sit for their entrance test in breach of Grenwich ruling, Tiffins would continue open selection policies. Only handful of children from Kingston & surrounding areas get places in Tiffins. Most of the places go to the children living at very very far away places, eg. Harrow, Southall, Greenford.

Grammar schools from Bromley (St. Olave & Newstead Wood), Redbridge (Woodford County & Ilford County) or Barnet/Herts (DAO & Latymer) or Slough (Langley) would not allow out-of-catchment children to even apply for admission tests. Other schools like Kent grammars would only give places to children living near to the School. Some schools have most of the places for catchment area (Nonsuch, Wallington etc.).

This year, Reading grammars (Kendrik & Reading) and Chelmsford grammars (both boys & girls) have changed their over-subscription criteria from 100% open selection to 100% catchment and 80% catchment respectively.

It is high time that children from Kingston and surrounding areas also get level playing field. Until all grammar schools are 100% open selection, it is fair that some priority is restored for these children.

We have therefore proposed that Tiffins give 80% places on the basis of proximity to the Schools (or such other Centre point in the Borough, as previously proposed by the LA) to those children who pass the entrance tests. Other 20% may be given on open selection.

This proposal complies with Greenwich/Rotherham rulings. We are aware that it would take lot of persuation for the Governors of these school to accept this proposal. We call upon all parents from Kingston & Surrounding areas t write to the Tiffin Schools in support of this proposal and copy these to your local MPs and Councillors.

I support neither Labour nor the Tories tiffinboys, but if the coalition government felt strongly that Local Authority involvement was a good thing they could have repealed Labour's laws. Instead we have that clown Gove making up education policy as he goes along; the dafter the idea the better. But that is the subject for a different thread.

I don't doubt that some LAs could have done with a kick up the backside but others were good.

@mumuinlondon Or have younger children and are fondly imagining their children will be included in the top 25%? Or had a chance to send their children to high performing comps over the border if it all went pear-shaped? You can't blame people for having aspirations but reality doesn't always pan out that way. As Zoffany has found out.
How arrogant. Are you saying level 6 is not in top 25% nationally; check the stats? For your information our aspirations have not changed for any of our DCs, whether at Tiffins or not.
Tiffins admission criteria - solely NVR/VR, open selection is Draconian and frankly ridiculous for a school with PAN of only 140/150.
So the school has filled its quota - with tutored up to the eyeballs one-trick-ponies, as it has done for some years now (since it plummeted downhill after Dr Dempsey retired his position as head).
Allocation by test: 1644 for 150 means that only the highest scoring ~9% will get in; 91% will be unsuccessful - based not on their ability, but purely on 'massing'.
FYI 220/280*100=79%, so how you consider my DC is not in the top 25% nationally, by any measure is frankly beyond me. Maths obviously not your strong point!

...and why for that matter, shouldn't a high ability child go to a high performing comprehensive - Tiffin ability local children - of whom there are many, are precisely the reason the school is doing so well. They are welcomed with open arms.

DS2 was actually in top 14% of those who sat the Tiiffin entrance test this year - under circumstances that amounted to a fiasco with record numbers taking the second test and old and new admissions rules being applied in concert - so you consider (in your infinite wisdom) that we fondly imagined him as being a high ability child, and that his secondary transition was a result of 'it all going pear shaped' do you? Would you care to say that to his face?

@zoffany
I do understand your feelings, specially as there were other factors during test administration in your DC's case as well. But I am sure muminlondon could explain her comments.

By the way, many would also not agree with your comment of about those getting into Tiffin (boys) being 'one trick monkies', though I agree that some appear to be not so bright, are heavily tutored and over practised for as much as 2 to 3 years.

However, many have level 6 in SATs as well. Almost entire top set in our primary had level 6 in Maths. They were not entered in English tests, so we don't know, but some also had level 6 as per teachers' assessment. I am sure that many others in the cohort have level 6 or at least 5A.

Perhaps she should. An apology would be more in order.
As far as 'one trick ponies', there is widely held opinion amongst the teaching staff at the school that a good many boys at TS really ought not to be there - based on their academic calibre - or rather should one say the lack of it! Heavily tutored level 4's can get in based on a one day flash in the pan performance - whereas naturally able level 6s who have not had so much coin thrown at them are being denied. With a paltry 150 places; accepting all and sundry from here there and everywhere, and with practical zero community engagement - i do not see what value these schools add.

Tony Dempsey looked at DS2 score sheet from the Tiffin test in detail - block-by-block - and he acknowledged that the child was of the calibre required, so i do not know where @muminlondon gets her special insight into my DCs ability from - he ran the school, she did not. Nowadays, Tiffin is a numbers game, nothing more.

@tiffinboys

...out of interest, how many of your top set Math level 6ers at DCs primary tried out for and were successful in gaining entry to Tiffins?
SPAG is irrelevant - even the teachers couldn't pass this at level 6.

30 plus tried for Tiffins (both boys & girls). 10plus got in; though we would liked few more to get as they were really good in both Maths/Literacy as well as were doing very well in NVR/VR. 3 of these went to selective independents.

I think that just two or three schools account for most of the children in 2013 Tiffin entry from Kingston borough. 2 more had Tiffin offers, but declined and went to independents.

Quite a few (8 plus) got into Sutton grammars (boys & girls) as well).

But more surprizing to us, our top whizz kid in Maths did not enter for any 11plus or independents and his parents opted for a comprehensive (near to home, good sports, mixed sex school, less pressure on child, avoid 11plus stress etc.). All quite good reasons. I am sure that this DC would be in his school's fast track easily.

@tiffinboys

to be honest, if you are getting that kind of 'success' rate consistently in your school / area and want to see a greater representation of local children into the Tiffins, you and other parents would be better off setting up tutor groups.

...since Mrs W is now retired, there is a gap in the market. lucrative opportunity, i would have thought.

Oh, well as you know, I am not a tutor and unless it can't be done, prefer DIY.

Secondly, no - the track record is not consistent. 2013 year group was very focused about grammars. Very few had got into Tiffins in 2012. I believe that 2010 was also much better than the other years.

Hi Zoffany, I was referring to your disappointment not meaning to link your DS specifically back to the percentage figure of 25%.

I'm sorry I personalised it by mentioning your name but I was making a general point. In a selective system there will always be children who miss out whether the cut-off is at 1% or 50%.

Just a thought. Would not some children miss out even in non-selective system e.g. Living some distance away from the cut off distance?

Unless the school is undersubscribed, this is bound to happen, whether the school is selective or not.

If we were to put Grey Court or Hollyfield, we would not get it. If we could get any of Coombe boys or Southborough or farther away, Chessington College; no waiting list there.

It's a good point. While schools should serve the local community (as Grey Court does admirably) we do now have a situation where some families can buy into catchment areas which others couldn't afford. I strongly dislike it when politicians encourage talk of 'good' or 'bad' schools when they really are really talking about 'schools with deprived intake and/lower levels of attainment' and 'schools in middle class areas which are popular'.

There are a couple of ways of tackling that: one is a lottery system (which parents don't tend to like unless the school has a particularly good record) and the other is banded intake on the basis of SATs or some sort of test. Mossbourne Academy does that and has a very balanced intake which gives it a fair base. It's probably the most successful sponsored academy in a deprived area and insanely popular. But that's more difficult to apply across an LA (and impossible when all schools are independent admissions authorities because they are looking out to preserve whatever advantages they may have had with their catchments.

But still, I'm watching Coombe Boys and Southborough with interest. Improvement precedes popularity.

Just before you pick me up on this, I think comprehensive schools serve their community but grammar schools should include the local schools affected by their selection policy in this consideration. Which is why I believe the Tiffin schools should not restrict catchment (parents should be responsible about their children commuting long distances). Some free schools that are ex-private selectives now have to have a comprehensive intake. They are doing this by taking e.g. 20% from five ability bands. State grammars could do ths too and be much more local if they wished.

I think that banding can work in a high density area like kingston. All children could sit CATS tests at the start of year 5 and each school reserve 20% of places for the top 20%, 20% of places for the next 20% and so on. However all schools would need to use a banding system.

Sink schools like Chessington College struggle to get enough children to fill a top set and really popular high achieving schools often do not have enough places in the high ablity sets for all the children who need them.

There needs to be provision for exceptionally bright who move into an area at say 12 or 13. In many areas of the country the only the sink schools have places.

I don' t think that banding can work in grammars as then these schools would not be selecting on the basis of high ability. Otherwise, these will just become comprehensives.

Yes - that's the point. What's not to like? It becomes a local comprehensive with a good top set to get some critical mass going.

"Yes - that's the point. What's not to like? It becomes a local comprehensive with a good top set to get some critical mass going."

Depends on whether you believe in the existance of super selectives. At the moment Tiffins has miminal impact on the Kingston comprehensives because it takes so few Kingston children. Some kingston comprehensives do extremely well if they are in the wealthier areas of Kingston and some like Chessington college really struggle because of the sheer number of low ablity children. Certainly Coombe Girls, Coombe boys, Hollyfield, Tolworth girls do have a enough bright children to run a decent top set. Chessington College has become a sink school and is caught in a vicous circle.

If you cream off the top 2% it makes little difference to the 98%. Where as creaming off the top 20% does create secondary moderns. It is vital that child has teaching to match their ablity, but this can happen in a comprehensive as easily as a grammar.

That's just the recipe to convert Tiffins into comprehensive. Is that the hidden agenda? .. Dreadful loss for the local children...

I have asked this before...
Currently about 30 boys get into Tiffin School. Would standards in other Kingston school go terribly down, if intake is increased by, say, another 30 boys?

If Tiffins took more local children then would probably mean fewer going to local indies, notably KGS (nice railings) - that's where most who fall short of TS/TGS qualifying tend to go from around here. So if you split the difference indie vs. comp, impact on local comps would be minimal - but there again, one could equally argue that every able child counts; i think GC for instance are perfectly happy with the situation where girls and boys capable of working at Tiffins levels are populating the school (why not).
But in any event, there would always be more capable children in the pool available from KoT/RoT primaries than the two Tiffins would be able to accommodate; the good state schools alternatives like Hollyfield and Grey Court School are pretty heavily oversubscribed.
I think Tiffins should select 80% places reserved for local children; 20% open.
If a child really wants to go to the school (rather than DC parent thumbing down the league ratings and saying 'this one, that one') then would still be possible - at the moment TS is overwhelmed by the influx - irrespective of how well these boys may have done in the tests it is not easily justified. Tiffins are Kingston schools; they show on the stats and as such should be educating children taken largely from local primaries.
There should also be interviews for the boys to establish why they particularly want to attend Tiffin School - as with the indies.
Too many families currently are there simply for what they can get... This is destroying the schools character.

Why is it a dreadful loss for the locals if Tiffins became a comprehensive?

'There should also be interviews for the boys'

That's not allowed according to the School Admissions Code. It coud lead to unfair social selection as it is a subjective method of assessment. Grammars already have less than a fifth of the average percentage eligible for free school meals.