Tiffin Schools Admission Arrangements

[tiffinboys]

Tiffin Schools (Boys & Girls) have issued their Determined Admission Arrangements for 2013-14. Boths Schools have decided to ignore pleas from the local community and opted to continue with Open Selection.

Though most of the grammar schools have catchment/proximity rules, some even going to the extent of denying applications to sit for their entrance test in breach of Grenwich ruling, Tiffins would continue open selection policies. Only handful of children from Kingston & surrounding areas get places in Tiffins. Most of the places go to the children living at very very far away places, eg. Harrow, Southall, Greenford.

Grammar schools from Bromley (St. Olave & Newstead Wood), Redbridge (Woodford County & Ilford County) or Barnet/Herts (DAO & Latymer) or Slough (Langley) would not allow out-of-catchment children to even apply for admission tests. Other schools like Kent grammars would only give places to children living near to the School. Some schools have most of the places for catchment area (Nonsuch, Wallington etc.).

This year, Reading grammars (Kendrik & Reading) and Chelmsford grammars (both boys & girls) have changed their over-subscription criteria from 100% open selection to 100% catchment and 80% catchment respectively.

It is high time that children from Kingston and surrounding areas also get level playing field. Until all grammar schools are 100% open selection, it is fair that some priority is restored for these children.

We have therefore proposed that Tiffins give 80% places on the basis of proximity to the Schools (or such other Centre point in the Borough, as previously proposed by the LA) to those children who pass the entrance tests. Other 20% may be given on open selection.

This proposal complies with Greenwich/Rotherham rulings. We are aware that it would take lot of persuation for the Governors of these school to accept this proposal. We call upon all parents from Kingston & Surrounding areas t write to the Tiffin Schools in support of this proposal and copy these to your local MPs and Councillors.

Quite right; there can't be interviews for state school places.

However, the Tiffins must admit its cohort 'wholly and mainly from the area in which it is situated. This is the Admission Code requirement. Isn't it?

Sorry, wrong reference. It is Academies Act and Tiffin's funding agreement.

Area is not the same as LA - they cannot reserve places within LA boundaries. In the case of Tiffin Girls/Boys they are nearer to Richmond and Merton and even Surrey than some parts of Kingston borough.

Quite right; never said area = LA.

We would gladly accept 20 meters around Kingston/Richmond borough.

Zoffany51: If Tiffins took more local children then would probably mean fewer going to local indies, notably KGS (nice railings) - that's where most who fall short of TS/TGS qualifying tend to go from around here.

Totally agree with you.

but there again, one could equally argue that every able child counts.

That should equally apply to children coming from all other areas as well. Their 'deprived local schools' would love to have them as well.

@tiffinboys. Agree - parents who complain about not having a superselective grammar in their catchment - nothing can really improve for them in terms of otptions and outcome while they continue to send the more able pupils many miles away to schools such as Tiffins. Their local schools can only do so much. Parents needs to buy into the equation as well. You reap what you sow.

At the risk of sounding navie. I have always thought of Tiffin school as a super selective. It attracts the brightest students from all over London. If the school was to move will the same argument be valid with all those who want it for a locality of 20 miles?..

Does it really matter that your child is not accepted even though you live on its doorstep. I think the criteria to get in is quite clear you have to be smarter than everyone else. So if your local and your not accepted go to another school.

If it was about locality then the rich people will just buy a house in the area... and tutor the hell out of their child get a borderline pass ....but what about those who cant buy in...who deserve a bright boy or girl education because they are smart enough to get in....

What about them?....

Im sorry if this does not go with the flow... but I think the school should admit the brightest no matter where they live.

"Im sorry if this does not go with the flow... but I think the school should admit the brightest no matter where they live."

Some children need to be protected from their parent's stupidity. It is awful making a child travel 20 miles to school each way. Such a long commute is bad for the enviroment and child health. If Tiffins had a ten mile or even a five mile radius of catchment area it would still be a super selective. The population of the Kingston/ Richmond/ Surrey area is incredibly high and could easily support a super selective school. I doult that the results of Tiffins would dip if they limited the catchment area to say 10 miles.

I am relieved that I no longer live near Kingston and my town has a good comprehensive system.

I am a current parent but I know of no one at Tiffin Girls who travels 10 miles let alone 20. The school now has a catchment area of sorts. It is difficult to get to as there is only one bus route which isn't a great service as is pointed out to applicants. I imagine this might affect girls coming from the far end of Kingston more than say Ealing on the direct route which is where we are based. I think a journey of 45 mins from a different borough is quite reasonable.

It would be interesting to know what is the furthest that a child travels to Tiffins boys/ girls. Are actually any children from Essex, Slough or the south coast?

I think that there is a certain level of sour grapes amongst Kingston parents whose children have not made the grade. Giftedness is all relative and there will always be a cut off point. Part of the lure of Tiffins is that it is a super selective and this means that inevitably the majority of children who take the test will be unsucessful. Not everyone's child can be in the top 2% of ablity.

I feel that places at a super selective school should be allocated as carefully as places at Oxbridge. Prehaps they should look at the all round talents of a child as well as academic prowess. I realise that inteviews are illegal because of the subjective nature, but maybe some form of group task could really seperate the wheat from the chaff. Or prehaps they could ask for a head teacher's report or look at a child's academic record across the curriculum.

hmm so the child got a place and the family moves over to Kingston.... To me that makes them local..

The thing is and this is an hyKingstonis. I suspect the non local students who do take the Tiffin school exam would not be in the borderline pass category. So they may not be taking a place from a borderline pass Kingston child living in the proposed catchment area.

Also if the children in and around Kingston are so bright then they need not fear competition from outside.

As for travelling I suppose the child can sleep on the bus, train or in the car. If they are smart enough to get in. I would expect them to triupmh over a trivial matter of travel.

To be honest I only see protectionism....Whereby a select few can gain access as long as they are made of the right stuff....live in the right area..

I believe that every child who has the ability should be allowed the best education that is available.

I actually own property in Kingston. So to me its a great idea think of the rent hikes....but its not fair to kids who deserve to get in.

Prehaps there is something to be said for a superselective that takes children from a wide stretch of the UK. However I think if such a school is going to exist then it needs to have proper weekly boarding facilities.

Prehaps such a school could be even more selective than Tiffins is at the moment. It would be in essence a special school for the profoundly gifted, just like there are special schools for children with severe learning difficulties. Rather than having the eleven plus, prehaps all children could be there because they have been statemented for their giftedness.

The children could totally skip keystage 3 and do GCSE work in year 7, A-levels in year 8/9 and then start degree work in a range of subjects. Visiting professors could be brought in to really challenge the most brilliant young minds in the country. There could be advice from educational pychologists to make sure that the mental well being of the extreme gifted is looked after as well as the academics.

I disagree with children travelling stupid distances to school as it squeezes out time for non school activites. Even the brightest children need time to socialise and be children.

I think that some people posting here have no idea about areas from where the children come to Tiffins. Last year, Tiffin School had published its admission data on its website. Makes very interesting read.

For those who want to keep Tiffins open selective, even Guildford or Slough or Hillingdon or Harrow or Kensel Rise/Willisden or Alperton is a 'easy' and ''quick' journey.

There is no official term - super selective.

Some people imply it to mean 'open selective' where thousands apply for relatively few places, and consequently, the cut-off scores are high.

Also there is no such thing as 'national' school. All schools are local schools and all academies are 'required' to admit pupil 'wholly and mainly' from the area in which it is situated. (Please don't confuse area with borough's boundary, but it certainly doesn't mean that Tiffin's area is M25 boundary and beyond.

"
Also there is no such thing as 'national' school. All schools are local schools and all academies are 'required' to admit pupil 'wholly and mainly' from the area in which it is situated. (Please don't confuse area with borough's boundary, but it certainly doesn't mean that Tiffin's area is M25 boundary and beyond."

There are state boarding schools which admit children nationally and many special schools admit from a huge area. For example there is a state boarding grammar school for the profoundly deaf in Newbury called "Mary Hare". In theory a bright, but profoundly deaf child who lives in Kingston could get a place at Mary Hare if the LEA is prepared to fund the place. Many special schools offer boarding facilities.

I agree that there is no offical definition of "superselective", prehaps gifted children would benefit if there was better organised provision. This would require a sea change in govenment policy, but I believe it would be good for the country.

There is a world of difference between the educational needs of the top 1% and middle class parents wanting to avoid their moderately bright child going to Chessington College because of the type of children who go there.

I think that Kingston parents have to face reality that Tiffins is no longer a school purely for Kingston children. The position of Kingston children is no worse than 90% of children in the country who have no access to grammar schools. There is little evidence that grammar school areas get better results overall than areas of the country with no grammars once factors like poverty are taken into account. Kingston comprehensives may not be the best in the country, but they are far from the worst.

So basiaclly Tiffin school is not for locals. Its for the select few bright Kids who are shipped in from the nether regions of the Orkney Isles. Joking aside does anyone know the actual percentage ratio of local to non local students at both schools. I mean if its a 70:30 split then it really isn't too bad is it?

I do agree though seems silly to me travel for hours for a school and miss out on the non school stuff...

Although I know a drive from Guildford to Kingston takes about 30 mins so its not really a million miles away....

It is not just changing; it is declining year on year as the number of applicants rises.

Tiggy so basically Tiffin can not be classed as a local school. If its intake is 10:90 its more of a school for the gifted from the Surrey , Hampshire and London areas.

The question is are there still schools for the locals to attend? Who I assume are not as gifted as the Tiffin school intakes.

If we disregard Tiffins and concentrate on the 90% of local students not able to attend Tiffin school. What are their other local options?

Does it mean because I live within one mile of a school that I should be automatically enrolled in that school?

Even though as we have discussed it is not a local school...

I apologize if this post will cause some people to be upset. The fact is that Tiffin schools does not seem to be a local school. Its intake clearly shows it. Kingston parents of bright children can apply but they should be realistic if they don't get in to find a local Kingston school. That intake is truely for Kingston children.

I agree parents that travel for hours for schooling is absurb but if they want to ...that is their prerogative. Who are we to determine what is good for them?

I also seriously doubt because the intake is not local from Tiffin schools that the standard has dropped because of it...