single sex education : arguments in favour of?

[mumat39]

Sorry, I'm blatantly copying the heading from another (excellent) post.

Just wondering for those of you that chose this route, why you did?

Many Thanks in advance.

Apologies to Happy for attributing that comment to her.

Why "sigh" this is my personal views I'm not trying to inflict them on others. I've become quite knowledgable about tractors diggers and tanks over the years and I'm afraid to say my two DS's were unmoved by their pony much more interestd in driving a toy lorry up his back! I was that pony/horse mad child/teenager and until recently adult but could not inspire the same passion in my DS's it really is a hobby/obsession dominated by girls/women. I really am not anti girl and I'm lucky the school/career discrimination so many women talk about has never affected me.
With regard to St Pauls of course its a privileged place but unlike many schools it's trying to adhere to its founders wishes and make the outstanding education it offers available to people from unprivileged backgrounds as are I believe many girls day schools and I'm sure coed indie schools. Of course its not a perfect system but it's better than not trying at all.
Thank you fivecandles for you generous apology I didn't think I said girls were hideous I cannot understand why any women would say that it's just not logical.

Sigh because I know you work with children and you so obviously favour males.
You have been dismissive of girls and their interests (claiming that they don't really have any past superficial fluff), that while you don't think girls being stereotyped is a good thing you get really pissed off when it is boys who are stereotyped, that in your own family you prefer boys and would not in fact want girls, and that you seem to be under the impression that girls do not love their mothers, or at least not as much as boys do.

You may feel that you are even-handed by your posts show a clear preference and as you work with children subconsciously it will be very hard for this clear preference not to manifest itself. We all betray our real views in tiny tiny ways all the time - however professional we are - and these subconscious preferences are I guess the best reason for single sex education.

You are c

You have no right to cast aspersions on my work you absolutely know nothing about me or for that matter where I work. I am a professional and treat all children regardless of their age gender nationality and any disability in exactly the same way. In fact I frequently praised for my exceptional advocacy skills which I use to ensure that any child I come into contact with receives top quality and individualised care and attention. I could provide you with numerous recommendation from both parents of boys and girls and the boys and girls themselves and from all my colleagues none would accuse me of any kind of discrimination. I have many faults but will not tolerate my ability to do my job properly being written by someone who doesn't even know me or my work.

But everyone gives the game away with their subconscious feelings, in the tiniest of ways. They don't even realise they are doing it.

I was speaking in general really, but I don't think that you can be different from all the other people in the world.

Don't you think that humans give off tiny cues all the time - almost imperceptable facial expressions, slight changes in tone of voice, subtle body language?

There have been an awful lot of studies on it.

I don't really want to get into a big argument. I don't mean to upset you and I am sure you are a dedicated and professional person.

I was upset that with seemingly no prompting someone appeared on here and said girls were hideous and then there were some further comments that seemed to be not very kindly / stereotyping. It happens a lot on MN and I don't like it.

I am going to bow out now.

Both dh and I went to single sex schools. We moved to make sure that our children did not. I think that they are very divisive and as likely to feed into stereotypes as challenge them. Certainly some of the girls schools locally had major problems with bullying on the basis of appearance, and the attitude of the boys at some of the schools I looked around when I opted to go to boarding school at sixth form (these were boys schools with girls at sixth form) were just grim, incredibly unpleasantly sexist.

SardineQueen!

I make one comment, in jest, and all of a sudden you have to share your paranoias and deep issues with the forum! lol!

No one is getting at girls. Boys, on the whole, do better academically, are happier and can be themselves more in a single sex school than co-ed. Well that's what I believe.

I don't know who slagged (hate that word) off girls. Women rule the world and I wouldn't have it any other way. But we are deadly, and shrewd, and utterly brilliant and boy (excuse the pun) do my boys need protecting from our kind!

Firstly I don't give off any negative vibes to any of the children I work with regardless of their gender nationality disability or background and I find it exceedingly offensive that you can suggest that I do. You may let your opinions cloud your judgement and influence you when at work but I am a professional and have an legal obligation and also am personally committed to the concept of equality for all those I and my colleagues come into contact with. Secondly I am not anti girl and have never once said I am I have repeatedly stated that I feel all should be given equal opportunities in education.

happygardening - I have no personal experience of boys' only schools (self-evidently, being female), so may be entirely wrong in my view of how 'boyish' boys cope there. maybe they are encouraged to be more open to their sensitive sides and to see women as people - i just don't know.

I do know several fairly 'feminine' men who (IMO) were slightly damaged by their experiences at all boys schools - and specifically in terms of their ability to have successful relationships with women. I agree that educationally my ds might do v well at an all boys' school - but socially I suspect it might be kinder both to him and any future girlfriends (!) to get him used to mixing with women on a daily basis (he is at a mixed primary now but has no interest in any of the girls now). Should add that your views of boys and girls at primary seem odd to me - my dds are rather more complex than your sparkly pony stereotype and they have many friends from the more sensitive boy category. Not all boys are into tractors etc! Just my ds does happen to fit that sterotypes!

If going to an all boys school means that men don't respect women then surely women who went to an all girls school don't respect men?

As with most schools discussions, 'it depends on the school'.
DH went to an all-boys' school, thought it was pretty uncivilized. Quite a lot of bullying and macho behaviour.

When we were looking at secondaries for DD, in yr5 she thought she'd prefer mixed but by yr6 had a strong preference for all-girls - she was fed up with all but one of the boys in her class not taking work seriously enough when they were meant to (it was a school with nice kids and good discipline, but still she found this). So we looked into single and mixed. One of the all-girls we wouldn't touch with a bargepole - we had reliable reports of bullying, that you really had to be an 'it girl' to fit in (WFT that might mean...). Others seemed fine; she ended up at an all girls GS which is particularly strong on science and tech, which suits DD well. TBH I think she'd have been fine anywhere (I was in a mixed school where I was the only girl in my science groups at a-level, one other girl for double maths... we did not get sidelined by arrogant boys, they were trying (unsuccessfully) to beat us ). I suspect girls schools are probably better if you've got a girl who wants to do science/maths/tech but maybe isn't 100% confident of her abilities.

Colleger - no, I think that might be the case if all other things ie the world were equal. But of course the world is not equal. My rather petite girls are at risk of feeling threatened by boys twice their size, or with voices twice as loud, for (simple) example. The kind of sexism that can prevent girls being taken seriously in sciences in a mixed school is unlikely to mean a boy who is good at English, or art, or languages etc, is dismissed in a similar manner.

A girls'only school shields girls from the sexism of the real world until they are old enough to deal with it. Boys don't need that kind of shielding, because imo, they don't face similar challenges.

And in my exprience of girls' only schools, girls did not view the opposite sex primarily through the prism of pornography, as a large number of pubescent boys seem to do these days. Whilst I am sure porn is probably more prevalent among both genders than it was when I was a teenager, I suspect usage at girls' only schools is somewhat lower than at boys' only schools. Also whether pornography serves to demean both men and women or just women is material for several other threads...

I suspect that there is less stereotyping of the sort that puts boys of English in a boys school than in a boys school in the same way that there is less stereotyping that puts girls off science in a girls school though bread.

I think the key is that in single-sex schools there is just not the same sort of comparing all the time and the children have to be accepted as individuals if that's the only gender that's being taught as opposed to 'Oh, you're a boy so you won't like reading'. You will want and expect to get a diversity within the school so there'll be some boys who like reading and some who don't as opposed to the simple and sexist division along gendered lines.

I think PE/sports is another example where girls can particularly shine in a girls school btw without fear of boys eyeing them up or telling them that they can't do football/running/whatever.

I agree with you about porn. I think although in many ways we are a more equal and less sexist society than 20+ years ago, in other ways like the objectification of women and sexual violence, we're getting worse.

I really, really don't want my girls to be exposed to the sort of stuff that is now commonplace in society at large but particularly with boys.

E.g. I have friends and colleagues who I absolutely respect but who think it's acceptable for their male children to play games like Call of Duty and that other one which involves picking up or worse prosititutes (can't remember the name of it now) and have unsupervised access to the Internet. I think this is much rarer for girls and I really, really don't want my girls to be exposed to this sort of stuff or even to be with people who think that it and the attitudes they promote/ reflect are ok.

Boys paying call of duty is unacceptable but girls can wear makeup and dress provocatively because it makes them feel good and it's just playing at growing up and that's ok.

The comments on here about boys confirm to me that my boys should be in a single sex school where they are nurtured and appreciated and not viewed as little perverts in the making! Fwiw, the boys I know are exceptionally naive and the girls knowledge of the world is far more worrying!

Colleger - wearing make up neither harms anyone else nor encourages one to harm anyone else - which appears to be what you are suggesting by your analogy. FWIW, I don't let my dds wear make-up either, and chose my dds school partly because - compared to the mixed schools - there seemed much less emphasis on the girls feeling they needed to prettify themselves for boys, wear make-up etc.

I don't view boys as little perverts in the making any more than I do girls - I think an interest in sex at that (or any) age is entirely normal and healthy. But you're being naive in the extreme if you don't admit that your teenage sons will want to find about sex somehow - and in the absence of real girls are likely to turn to pornography, now easily accessible at the click of a mouse. Whilst there may be a similar temptation for teenage girls, I think less so - unless the world has changed radically since I was a teenager it has always been easier for girls to access the real thing if they are so minded than for boys...

And real relationships are at least obviously with people rather than sexual objects.

So you think my boys will never see a girl or mix with girls outside of school or have females in the home? Most boys have all of the above and do not need to turn to pornography or if they do it's because it's readily available and they want to, not because of an absence of girls.min fact it seems pornography is more available since women became more emancipated and children were taught in mixed environments.

Are you saying that because a boy can see a girl in a co-ed school he knows what her anatomy looks like and won't turn to pornography? This conversation is getting very silly and there is a lot of scare-mongering and hearsay! And you don't think young girls dressing in appropriately for their age does no harm to themselves or society as a whole?

I worry for the girls that are being brought up by mothers who have painted boys in such a poor light. You are doing your daughters a disservice.

Other countries are far more co-ed orientated. I am thinking of the US here but other countries are similar. Although the single sex option exists it isn't widespread or revered in the same way as in the UK I've found. Why?

"my dds are rather more complex than your sparkly pony stereotype"
I don't agree that just because you're interested in sparkly ponies your not complex. What's is wrong with girls likely ponies and boys diggers who says its shallow?
As an admittedly non pink sparkly but horse obsessed child I was exceedingly complex. These stereotypes exist because they are true you only have to walk into Claire's accessories to see that many girls like pink whats wrong with liking pink? I personally like red I've got friends who like designer hand bags and others who like opera, I have a fascination for bearded iris and grow them all over my garden does this make me shallow or is that ok because its not a stereotype?
Have you ever owned a horse there is nothing shallow about it? It shows an unbelievable level of commitment and dedication that many employers would like their employee to have. People make massive sacrifices financial physical and other relationships to pursue this hobby. Having now been "cured" of my horse obsession I'm not advocating it but it is far from shallow and many of the things I did e.g. getting up at 6 am in the pissing rain/Christmas day/when you feel il, or having to cope with massive disappointment having spent years of preparing the dam things are IMO excellent life skills. Just because you have no interest in pink/ponies/diggers/tractors it is IMO at your peril that you discourage your children not to be interested (ok maybe discourage the ponies).

"but socially I suspect it might be kinder both to him and any future girlfriends (!) to get him used to mixing with women on a daily basis"
But you DS is used to mixing with a women on a regular basis you. You are likely to be the greatest female role model he will ever have. At key phases times in his development you have been there and will influence his behaviour both positively and negatively for the rest of his life. You by your actions and thought will have shown him how to deal with the many complexities that life throws at us including how to form and deal with the ups and downs of relationships. You don't have to be a child psychologist to know that There is no greater female role for your DS. than his mother.
So many of the things my DS's say and do I know are due to my and of course my DH direct and indirect influences. The good news my DS's hate horses having been out through extensive aversion therapy from a few weeks old!

The vast majority of schools in the UK are mixed-sex. In the state sector there are hardly any single-sex primaries, and I think under 15% at secondary.

The proportions are different in the private sector but that's only a small segment. Even there, more are becoming mixed (at least in their 6th forms) over time.

However, if you look at league tables, single-sex schools appear to be overrepresented at the upper end. Its a bit hard to disentangle the various factors - probably a disproportionate number of the single sex state schools are also grammar schools.

But, if you're looking for academically excellent schools, you do tend to find a lot of them are single sex. This is not necessarily a causal effect - it could just be the result of their history.

"This is not necessarily a causal effect - it could just be the result of their history."
I agree although I think its interesting that St Paul's boys have no intention of admitting girls even into their 6th form. But on the other hand with their results and the fact that they are enormously over subscribed its hardly surprising.
I'm not a teacher but would be interested to know if lessons are different in single sex schools. Do the teachers use a different approach when teaching girls, boys. mixed? My own DS always keen on art never joined the art club at his prep (there were only girls in it) but now at his senior school attends the art room in his spare time. Is this a coincidence? May be it is I don't know. He's seriously in love with learning German I understand that many boys drop languages as soon as they can. Is this another coincidence? Again I don't know.
"she was fed up with all but one of the boys in her class not taking work seriously enough when they were meant to"
I can assure you that this does not happen at my DS's single sex school. Is this to do with school ethos or maybe when its all boys together those who don't take work so seriously are influenced by those that do. Probably both factors come into play.