single sex education : arguments in favour of?

[mumat39]

Sorry, I'm blatantly copying the heading from another (excellent) post.

Just wondering for those of you that chose this route, why you did?

Many Thanks in advance.

[MN164]

hear .... [sigh]

[MN164]

Not sure how this got resurrected by a deleted post, but the debate is still just as fresh today at 4 years ago.

If any one fancies joining me on this, do chip in!

I am against any distinction by gender as a principle and my "utopia" would be "blind" to gender, race, colour, belief, etc.

However, the real world is not gender blind and, sadly, life for adolescent girls, is just as frought with mysogeny as it ever was, albeit in different ways.

I often here this line "I went to a girls school and they are too bitchy without boys around"

First of all, that person has no experience of girls in a co-ed setting to compare too. In fact, women in adult life professionally and socially can exhibit that behaviour too. There is no evidence where the sample is more than 1 to support this idea.

It is just as likely that girls identify with each other and support each other in a "safe place" in a way that they might not if boys are around. It is also likely that the schools pastoral system, 100% focussed on girls, will better suit adolescent issues for girls.

However, that is merely hypothesis. The data supports it, dig deep into the research and you will see that:

• like for like academic achievement is greater in girls schools (state or private)
  
• single sex educated girls tend to earn more, rise to higher levels in their professions and marry just as often as others (no problem forming relationships)
  

- gender stereo typed subject choices don't happen (hence maths, physics and science female candidates too low in co-ed and "normal" in single sex)

• levels of bullying are lower in girls school (how does that square with the "bitchy" element)
  
• levels of mental health disorders etc are no different to nationwide averages (which are sadly too high)
  
• sexual harrassment and abuse in school premises is high in co-ed settings but NON-EXISTANT in girls schools. That's not to say all boys are harrassing, but it makes it clear that as amny as 5 girls in any classroom will have been a victim by the end of their co-ed schooling (is that good for a 11-16 year old girl - is that "preparing them for the real world"?)
  

Sources: Dept of Education, NSPCC, Centre for Longitudinal Research.


To repeat, I don't like the fact that the evidence supports girls schooling as, on average, better for girls ..... but when the evidence is solid, I change my mind.

Rant over, discuss. ......

[happygardening]

At the end of the day the most important thing is that we as parents believe we are doing the right thing for our own children and ultimately other parents do not have a right to criticise. We also need to accept that nearly all parents want the best for their children even if their idea of "best" is not my idea of ?best? and we all have to respect this.

[teacherwith2kids]

Happygardening and others,

I think I made it clear that I was commenting on my local schools, not on schools in general - and as St Paul's isn't local to me, I wasn't commenting about that particular school.

Of course it depends very much on individual schools. It may be that my local co-ed school has an exceptionally tough uniform policy, which simply doesn't allow for the type of hairstyles and clothing I see on the all-girls' school pupils of the same age (definitely not an age thing, i'm talking about teens of very similar ages).

I'm just saying that for my local schools, my observation is that "dressing and behaving provocatively when in school uniform" is more common for the local single sex school than it is for the local co-ed - and as the mother of a scruffy tomboy type (at least when not in her 'ballerina' persona!) I can therefore see her more comfortably fitting into the co-ed school. I am prepared, through further research, to be proved wrong - not as in "wrong about single sex schools in general" but wrong in that "defining a female child by their gender" may turn out in the end to be more prevalent in my local co-ed school than the all-girls' one. Such research definitely demonstrated that defining a boy by his gender was MUCH more prevalent in the all-boys' school (every sentence in the tour of the school was prefaced "Well, because boys prefer / like / do more of / need x, y andz") than the co-ed one, which is why DS is staying co-ed.

[breadandbutterfly]

Eurgh. Hope not. Hope the fact their mum wears no make up ever will mean my dds bypass that stage. Sounds v v tedious.

[pianomama]

glaurung - your are right, its the age and not school. 2 DDs (girls school) and DD3 (mixed ) followed exactly the same pattern at certain ages (especially that unbearable 2 hr preparationjust to pop out to the local shop) and I am happy to say, all grew out of it very quickly to become lovely young ladies with immaculate tastes in dressing (just like their mother :) ).
Interestingly, DD3 took much quicker to snap out of it - I wonder if this was due to me being much more relaxed and less confrontational about it.

[glaurung]

my dd changed from a co-ed school to a girls only one (at her insistence) in year 10. At exactly the same time she changed from being a scruff to someone who wouldn't leave the house without spending ages arranging her hair, makeup etc. Probably it was just her age rather than the school ethos, or just wanting to fit in at the new school, but it's interesting.

[GrimmaTheNome]

teacher - depends on the individual school (as ever). I meet my daughter off her all-girls school bus every day at a stop right outside the local coed and my perceptions are the exact opposite of yours. It was no-uniform day yesterday and it was mostly jeans and hoodies (and no-makeup allowed anyway).

But, from reports of the girls school we wouldn't touch with a bargepole for bullying, that one was fake tan and highlights all the way.

[happygardening]

*"From a superficial examination, there is a lot more of the flicky hair / short skirts / heavy make-up evident from the girls' school, and a preponderance of trouser-and-jumper wearing, I'm-dressed-sensibly-for-work, "no particular effort put into appearance" girls from the co-ed"8
Have you ever read the thread on on MN about St Pauls girls? I think you might change you view on the above if you had. Although of course it may must be malicious gossip!

[teacherwith2kids]

B&B, Interesting. As I think I said further up the thread, I looked at and rejected single sex secondary for DS as it really wouldn't have suited him (very sensitive boy - though apparently sporty and tough).

I have found co-ed primary to be fairly 'gender blind' for both, but will look at single sex for secondary for DD to see which would suit her best. From a superficial examination, there is a lot more of the flicky hair / short skirts / heavy make-up evident from the girls' school, and a preponderance of trouser-and-jumper wearing, I'm-dressed-sensibly-for-work, "no particular effort put into appearance" girls from the co-ed ... but that's only what is visible outside the schools, obviously I'll be visiting both and taking each school on its merits.

[breadandbutterfly]

teacherwith2kids - think it was precisely that I have felt/observed girls being stereotyped by their gender that put me off co-ed for my dds. Daresay not all coeds do this as much as others, but I hae observed as both parent and teacher so many comments (from the girls themselves) about how the girls ought to be dressing prettily for the boys, boys dominating classroom time and teachers' attention etc, that i didn't want this for my dds. Sure, they'll hae to do it when older - but hopefully years of being taken seriously and not judged acc to looks will mean they will be used to that and demand the same respect at uni and beyond...

[Colleger]

I forgot about mathematicians! Lol! That's the one thing putting my eldest off studying for a maths degree as he is very normal and he can see the other maths boffins are not!

[teacherwith2kids]

Colleger,

My 'oddest group' is definitely mathematicians. Lovely, in the main, but quite startlingly odd - though where i know the whole family the families are mostly [I exclude the family in which ALL the family members, male and female, for the last 3 generations, are all mathematicians] entirely normal with entirely normal relationships within the family...

In those groups, I would suggest that it is the obsession with something quite abstract that is either a cause of, or a result of, the appearance of 'oddness' to others. Nothing at all related to education - all the brilliant mathematicians I know, male, female, young, old, from state co-eds and exclusive private boarding schools, are all equally a little other-worldly!

Thinking again about single sex schools, I do not, in the main, want or expect my children (or myself) to be defined by their gender. I therefore feel uncomfortable about an education which does so, somewhat as I would be about an education which divided them by e.g. hair colour, ethnicity etc. It seems to me important that they see role models and have friends and work alongside as wide a variety of others as possible - including both sexes.

However, I can see that IF in a co-ed school they were anyway being stereotyped by their gender ('boys run around a lot and don't work hard' / 'girls have neat writing so they are cleverer') then a single sex school might be the least worst option. However, in my experience so far, both of my children are being allowed by a co-ed education to think of themselves as 'learners' first and as girl / boy second, in a school where for a boy it is as cool to be top in maths as it is to captain the football team or play in the school concert, and where for a girl being the class's fastest runner is as valued as being a good artist.

[Colleger]

Lots of comments about why one wouldn't or shouldn't but no actual direct experience of sending a child to one. As I've said I've had one boy who has been all boys except two short periods in co-ed and one in co-ed with one short stint in an all boys. The vulgar language about sex etc from the co-ed school was eye-watering, as was the insecurity from both sides.

As it is, the oddest group of people I've ever come across are musicians and virtually all of them went to co-ed liberal schools. So I don't think a school has much to do with it. Let's face it, Public School is five years of their life so if a child was co-ed up until then, do you think 5 years in an all boys school could really damage a child? Most odd people have odd family relationships!

[cheapandchic]

I said it was a generalisation! I am just saying in my experience that is what I have seen. I know at least 10 men,maybe more, whom, in my opinion, are not good working with, being friends with or falling in love with women.

Collegar- I am not inept to be friends with them. They are/were flatmates, friends of friends, boyfriends of girlfriends of mine and even my brother in law.
Maybe inept is the wrong word. I am not saying they are bad people at all. I am just saying they are strange with women.

I am just posting why I wouldn't send my son to an all boys school. Sensible or not its just my opinion.

[happygardening]

I think it also has to be accepted that boys schools and in particular boarding schools have also changed considerably over the years. Boys no longer get a spoonful of cod liver oil every morning they loos with locks on and no communal showers. Housemasters usually have families and matrons are generally women. There is also considerable more contact with the local girls school than there was when my husband was at school. He only ever saw the girls from St Pauls Girls when they shared a hall for public examinations! So hopefully they are now turning out more rounded individuals!

[happygardening]

You should be worried when I tell you that my parents were probably the most unhorsey people that ever walked the face of the universe and I'm afraid that particular stereotype applied to me in spades. Also forget the budget although considerable its the time factor that is frequently underestimated!
The good news is that it is curable; 20 years of of endless disasters and you can finally come to your senses.

[breadandbutterfly]

happygardening - I'm sure there are plenty of men who go through single sex ed fine. They don't all end up hating women or seeing women as objects rather than people. Just possibly a little more often than men from co-ed?

I'm sure it depends on the school too - some schools are prob more balanced than others.

Re your earlier horsey comments, I am so far from horsey that I think you meant sparkly ponies as in My Little Pony type thng - the real ones never crossed my mind! Good thing too as far beyong my budget...

[happygardening]

fivecandles you are opposed to stereotyping of both boys and girls but surely the strong criticism above of boys who've been educated in single sex schools is also also a stereotype?

[happygardening]

My DH single sex all through school and then three years at college ok not a saint but then Saints - "some of them are so hard to live with"
and not by any stretch of the imagination 'in awe' of women, or dumbstruck!! Nearly 25 years of marriage as well.

[breadandbutterfly]

Interesting posts, cheapandchic and Grimma - so this effect on men's relationships in later life if they come from all-boys' schools is not just in my mind then...

Good post fivecandles.

colleger - I don't really want my ds to be 'in awe' of women, or dumbstruck round them. I don't think that's terribly hea;lthy. I'd just like him to be relaxed and normal around them, have them as friends...and then relationships are more likely to be balanced when he is older.

[fivecandles]

'my boys should be in a single sex school where they are nurtured and appreciated and not viewed as little perverts in the making'

But that is sort of my argument too. My view is that any sort of gender stereotyping cannot fail to damage boys AND girls.

But also, my concern is not that boys are like this and girls are like that but about SOCIAL ATTITUDES and what they do to our perception and creation of gender differences. Porn damages both boys and girls in my view.

I also think that girls dressing provocatively is a problem and it's connected to the SAME social attitudes that encouage porn - i.e the objectification of women.

If anything, the gender stereotypes about boys being aggressive and strong and football mad are more damaging for boys than for girls. But you have to look at how society as a whole deals with gendered identity as a whole.

Pitching boys against girls or vice versa just encourages the divide and the stereotypes. It's not helpful.

[pianomama]

...isn't that true for men generally :) .Where would they be without the GW?

[GrimmaTheNome]

colleger - snap!

So, boys schools fine so long as you can arrange for your DSs to fall into the hands of a Good Woman!