single sex education : arguments in favour of?

[mumat39]

Sorry, I'm blatantly copying the heading from another (excellent) post.

Just wondering for those of you that chose this route, why you did?

Many Thanks in advance.

[SardineQueen]

I think it's a terrible shame there aren't more men working in preschool settings and primary schools.

And also startling that when the odd man is working in a primary school he is usually the one in charge (head desk).

That diamond shape thing sounds like a good model.

[happygardening]

And I can't agree with this "But rather to illustrate that boys, contrary to popular perception and encouraged by the media, in the indie sector can do as well and infact better when they attend single sex schools nothing to do with out performing girls."
How can you not "agree"? I was not trying to point score you don't know what I was trying to say so how can you assume that I meant something else? What I said above is what I meant. I'm not talking about privileged men running the country I'm not even going there. Not once have I said boys are better than girls or cleverer or deserve a different or better education.
I am tired and irritated by the negative press boys get. The fact that someone can post on here that her son's horizons need to be broadened because he's interested in trains and planes (this is stereotyping as much as ponies hair clips and pink) and that girls are the best way of doing this. So what if they like planes and trains and so what if girls like ponies and pink people we so not live in a dictatorship people regardless of their age or gender should be free to pursue anything that takes their fancy and not feel that they need a their horizons broadened.
The argument about privileged men running this country has nothing to do with OP.

[SardineQueen]

But I don't think the press says that boys can't do well, I think it is well accepted that boys at independent single sex schools (and at independent mixed schools) do well.

Children at independent schools do well full stop, it's more to do with privilege than anything else. Maybe I have misunderstood what you are trying to say.

I also don't understand why I am getting flack for saying that I think children should be treated as people rather than by their sex, and I get narked when I read posts saying how awful and shallow girls are. I still cannot see what prompted those comments and I don't understand it, and it is a theme on MN.

[SardineQueen]

The press young females get mainly surrounds pictures of them without many clothes on. Hardly positive.

[Yellowtip]

I went to an all girls London day school but much, much, much prefer co-ed for my DC, boys as well as girls. Much more normal.

[happygardening]

"But I don't think the press says that boys can't do well" no but there is a lot of press and research stating that boys in the state sector are repeatedly year on year under performing in comparison to the girls. And I'm sure I read somewhere on this posting or another (I cant find it now)that boys needed girls to improve their performance. The point I was trying to make is that boys can do well as proved by St Paul's in the right environment ok you may perceive this as a privileged environment but what ever it might be it its a successful environment for boys.
I dont think girls are awful and shallow any more than I think boys are digger obsessed thugs.

[CecilyP]

Yes, when looking at all pupils thoughout the state sector, average attainment for girls is higher than for boys. It does not mean that all boys are underperforming - thousands of boy are doing extremely well. If a school deliberately selects boys who are doing extremely well, it would be more surprising if they didn't continue to do well. I don't think it is much to do with either priviledge or the absence of girls.

[newgirl]

I think mixed is the way to go as at some point they've got to get on and be able to work together/live together.

[SardineQueen]

Children in selective state schools do extremely well too.

Selection is the key there.

[SardineQueen]

Boggling at I may perceive St Pauls as a privileged environment!
Surely that is something that is just a fact?!

Also this "boys in the state sector are repeatedly year on year under performing in comparison to the girls" ie boys have started to get lower results than the girls and this means they are underperforming which again suggests that the natural position for boys is to do better than girls.

For years the boys did better and no-one thought anything of it, in any year one sex is going to do better than the other, if the one that does better is girls you get an awful lot of comment about it and saying that it means in some way things are wrong. Why would that be, I wonder.

[happygardening]

SardineQueen it seems to me that you have more of a problem with boys than those posting above have with girls!
"Boggling at I may perceive St Pauls as a privileged environment!
Surely that is something that is just a fact?!"
St Pauls/Colet Court has an open access policy; read their website all who meet their entrance criteria will be given financial assistance if necessary. Ok the facilities are pretty special as are the teachers and of course the ethos but it is not only open to those who have money.

[SardineQueen]

What problem do I have with boys.
Show me.
I'm not the one who said that most of them are only interested in ponies and sparkles or whatever you said upthread.
I reacted to the comment on the thread that said girls were "hideous" and apparently that means I dislike boys What a load of old cobblers.

Arguing that a school like st pauls is not a privileged environment is peculiar.

[SardineQueen]

Sorry I mean I'm not the one making stereotypical statements about children of either sex. Your comment about girls was out of line, as was the one about girls being hideous.

I still cannot see what prompted the comment about girls being hideous and no-one will tell me

[fivecandles]

happy, I don't think your arguments are very clear or helpful. Sardine is right that kids in independent schools tend to do well full stop. Independent schools are usually selective and blah di blah. It is not the case that all boys do well in single sex schools. It's well known that in areas where there are single sex schools the boys school struggles in terms of results and often numbers in comparison to the girls' school and there have been some notorious boys' schools which failed. Remember these boys and girls may well be siblings.

[fivecandles]

'has an open access policy; read their website all who meet their entrance criteria...'

Can you not see a contradiction there?

[fivecandles]

'For years the boys did better and no-one thought anything of it'

I'm pretty sure that it's still the case that boys do better in some subjects.

[fivecandles]

Yes, in Maths www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/record-results-as-boys-outperform-girls-in-maths-1777868.html

Interesting that the Govt has done away with coursework in the knowledge that this particularly benefits girls.

[SardineQueen]

Yes they do fivecandles, and of course tend to do better on average over a lifetime as well in terms of power and money - things that are generally considered to be indicators of "success".

Just that girls do better in a couple of subjects for a few years and you'd think the sky was falling in.

There are of course pockets where boys are being failed terribly and it needs a targeted approach to try and improve things there. Generally the game needs to be raised in certain areas - it's all linked into poverty though - and so with all the cuts going on I can't see that there will be much improvement any time soon. Government pays lip service to it but are they really interested in improving things for eg a boy growing up on a dodgy estate in east london surrounded by crime and gangs. Only insofar as they don't want him to become a criminal but beyond that not really is my guess.

[SardineQueen]

This coursework/exams thing that gets raised.

Why don't they just make qualifications half coursework and half exams and then no-one can claim that either side is being given an unfair advantage.

[happygardening]

The point I was trying to make re: boys doing as well as girls in the indie sector is not a boys are better than girls or vice versa just that for some reason boys often under perform in the state sector whether they be in single sex or coed and maybe the indie sector proves that there is no need for this and that maybe their success needs to be examined to see if it can be replicated in the state sector. I do not hate girls and am as keen for them to achieve and have as a broad range of opportunities as boys I can see that both boys and girls may do better in single sex and that others in coed it all depends what sort of child you have. I have one DS in single sex one in coed it works for both of them but I do find that some teachers in coed appear prejudiced against boys for a reason I am not able to comprehend. And I'm sure mums of girls will say the same thing. What I don't and wont accept is that boys need girls to broaden their horizons or make them more civilised anymore than mums of girls would accept that girls need boys to broaden theirs!
With regard to: 'has an open access policy; read their website all who meet their entrance criteria...'
The criteria for entry into St Pauls/Collet Court assuming you live in London and the surrounding area is only academic selection. "Privilege" may bring you lots of things that the unprivileged cannot ever have but intelligence is not one of them!

[fivecandles]

It's not an argument that makes sense, happy. The independent sector outperforms the state sector full stop. You could say it's funny how all short-sighted people seem to do better in the independnet sector but underperform in state schools. It's got nothing to do with boys' performance relative to boys.

As for the thing about St Paul's, I don't even know where to start. Surely you're not trying to say that St Paul's is somehow an inclusive school. Surely you know that 'intelligence' alone is not going to get you into a highly selective, fee paying school and that there is a link between academic performance and social class??

[fivecandles]

'do find that some teachers in coed appear prejudiced against boys for a reason I am not able to comprehend'

and yet you are the one saying girls are 'hideous'??

This is all very strange.

However, I think there is some truth that if teachers are broadly comparing the boys with the girls that they teach then they will often find that boys are more likely to demand attention and be disruptive and lack motivation. There will almost certainyl be more boys in the bottom sets. They're more likely to find aggression, defiance and resistance to study in boys and yes this probably becomes self fulfilling.

For these reasons it may be the case that boys feel more comfortable and more appreciated in a boys school. They are more likely to encounter positive role models there in terms of male teachers.

I said earlier that it's a sort of paradox that single sex schools may actually challenge gender stereotypes more than girls schools. GIrls in girls schools more liekly to take conventionally 'masculine' subjects for example. Don't know if there is a correlation in boys schools with boys more likely to excel in English for example? Possibly.

[RosesAndCustard]

I went to an all girls school and loved it. If I had known how sexist the big wide world was I would have hesitated to take the science route. In a science/ maths class full of girls to a lecture theater full of boys .

I was given the space I needed to develop academically thinking about nothing but the subject and focusing efforts where I was truly talented. In a mixed school I would have been intimidated into choosing a more 'girly' subject. (actually got scared off my fave career choice after uni and went into something more girly because of the girl/boy ratio. Bit older now and over it (can get girly gossip time out of work), so going back to fave area again).

[happygardening]

Did I say they were hideous? colleger did I've very quickly looked back through my posting I cant find me saying that. Maybe I did but where? I work everyday with both and am always surprised that boys and girls from wide variety of back grounds are polite friendly and considerate. The media portrayal of children who cant name the prime minster, and who think that milk comes from sheep and who given half a chance would mug their own grand parents to pay for drugs and fags is far removed from my experiences.
I only have boys and personally would only want boys but this has nothing to do with education but as most mothers of boys know boys love their mum!

[SardineQueen]

It was colleger who said that girls were hideous, fivecandles.

"I only have boys and personally would only want boys but this has nothing to do with education but as most mothers of boys know boys love their mum!"



And of course st pauls is a privileged environment. There are no two ways about it.