Mandarin in secondary school?

[Greythorne]

There's a big debate going on at our school (France) about whether Mandarin is going to be useful or not.

Obviously, there are those who think it is an absolute must as trade with China is going to increase in importance and that is will be much more useful thqn German (which is the MFL most often offered after English here(.

Whilst I agree with that, I did read an article (possibly in The Guardian, but can't find it now) which argued that as all educated Chinese will be speaking excellent English going forward, the really is little point especially as:

-- it takes years and years to reach a decent level
-- there simply are not enough teachers of Mandarin and so there's a reliance on student teachers who come on one year exchange programmes (no continuity)
-- the cultural barriers are so high for Euopeans that even with a few years of language learning, they will never be able to compete with Chinese students / adults who have been immersed in Western culture via media / formal learning for years

I don't want to take an anti-learning position, but I really am veering towards the idea that learning Mandarin is a pointless exercise.

Can someone please convince me?

Pushed, I think I agree with you. But I do think that as China attempts to crush information it will get out, foreign travel and everything will have an impact on the average Chinese person....although it will take some time.

pushed you seem to be arguing for the sake of it.

No one, I think, believes the west is without flaws. Yes, there are people in the States who will try to ban Harry Potter or manage to have creationism taught in schools. But, and it's a big but, Harry Potter and the big bang theory and everything else out there is available to your average Joe at the touch of a button. And the people are fully used to seeing differences of opinion expressed. And indeed freely expressing them themselves.

Whereas, the Chinese government have pretty much succeeded in controlling the flow of all information into China. Your average Joe there cannot get access to differining information/fiction/news reporting etc. The idea of individulaity of expression and opinion is not part of the cultural backdrop at all.

OMG how much does Pushedtotheedge like the sound of her own voice at one point I thought she was arguing with herself.

"you seem to be arguing for the sake of it"

Its dawning on me that this is not the right forum or audience for such a discussion :) Time to bow out.

I don't think China will have a revolution. The government is not doing a bad job of a slow transition towards what may ultimately become some sort of democracy (poss similar to HK- i.e. a nod towards it) and people are getting richer, and as Lenin said "The politics of bread are the politics of power."

Whilst I would never argue that all is well in human rights land, there are definitely steps in the right direction, in no small part due to the efforts of western NGO's who have partnered with the government and are making gains in areas such as institutional care of minors, land reform, criminal justice reform. Treatment of people with disabilities/ special needs has been appalling but is improving (largely NGO driven).

The government is reasonably competent in some areas, hopelessly lacking in others, but what I've seen is a willingness to engage with NGOs in areas where it is failing.

I hope they succeed. I feel like the Chinese population is due a break. In any event, it's going to be a really interesting half century (doubt I'll live to see much more than that unfortunately)

Hi just been checking out mumsnet for comments on Mandarin as my DD has opportunity to start either this or Spanish next year in Year 8 . I know she is not going to be fluent by any stretch of the imagination. However, she is thinking of selecting Mandarin just because it is something completely new, requires new ways of thinking and therefore, might stretch her in other ways as well as learning about a completely different culture. She is currently doing German and as one MFL is compulsory at GCSE, it is likely she will have to do German GCSE if she doesn't go on to enjoy Mandarin. The choice has to be made now as there are no opportunities to add languages after Year 8 and no opportunities to drop a language until GCSE options. Anybody higher up the education ladder with actual experience of Mandarin classes over a few years ?

Sorry if I am completely missing the point, I am not expecting her to be able to conduct business in China, but just thinking that something that broadens her horizons and stretches her can't be a bad thing - or would she just be narrowing the options available at GCSE - surely learning for interest is just as important as learning to pass an exam ? Or am I being completely naive ?

I agree with you, mrsobriain and I don't think you're being naive.

And an observation. When I tell people I'm studying Mandarin they are always impressed and really interested to know why, how I'm finding it, how difficult is it, etc. If I told people I was going to German classes there wouldn't be anything like the level of interest!

It's perceived as a 'difficult' language, so might work in her favour when it comes to applying to universities, etc.

"it's going to be a really interesting half century"

RmPmBmT: did you phrase it like that deliberately?

Do you mean as in "may you live in interesting times?"

No, I didn't, but maybe it was sub-conscious.........

I should add, I have nothing against Mandarin as a MFL in secondary school. However, I do not think that parents should underestimate the progress likely to be made in the time allowed.

Thanks BIWI, good to know that.

I am looking for a school giving A level in Mandarin in Surrey or London. Any idea?

My niece has the level already. she just need to take the test.

whitgift school in Surrey does mandarin A level - its a boys school but might let her take the exam?

My daughter started Mandarin in primary school, continued it to GCSE and now does it as an optional added extra to her science A levels. Her GCSE class all got A*- C grades. She's done two trips to China with the schools and we've had Chinese kids to stay. She has made really good friends and it has given her a different perspective on the world.
It's a fantastic idea to learn Mandarin and find out about a very different culture.

This thread turned really high flying, so my point may be redundant already.

I cant add to any of the educational points, but as for westernized Chinese people taking the jobs, they may not want to go and live where the jobs are! It is not all glamour!

Mandarin has been useful to know in small fishing communities in the North of Norway, and the language is offered in village schools. There is trade with China, and it has been useful for staff in fish related industries to talk to suppliers and buyers in China. We are here talking about an operations manager in a factory producing food for import with a need to communicate with China. As an additional dimension, neither may speak English, so they cant even swap to a different language....
Just an example, and whether it is useful for A levels I dont know. The experience from Norway shows that people take up Mandarin when their jobs demand it, rather than seeking out jobs with a possibility of practicing ones Mandarin.

Madarin is a gimmick which some schools use as bait to lure gullible parents. Yes, you can get a good GCSE result to parade on your website and at open evening, you just choose a few top set, and the gcse is not difficult. However, it is not difficult, because it is at a level far too low to be of 'use'.

I have known many young people who have gone on from GCSE, which will teach you the basics of the language to become extremely competent in either the level of Mandarin to function for business or to actually study Mandarin texts academically. Plenty of good and interesting uni courses incorporating Mandarin with other subjects such as Mandarin or area studies which also have very good employment statistics, with banks, law firms etc eager to pick up graduates with both the cultural knowledge and linguistic skills. Most of those courses will not require a Mandarin GCSE but it gives the student a chance to find out if they have the sort of memory and other skills that will mean they are motivated to study it further, as well as access all the cultural knowledge you gain from studying a pictorial language. Isn't that true of most GCSEs?

Mandarin is not harder than other languages to learn, it is different, so it is harder for some people who perhaps are better at European languages, but if you have the right sort of, pictorial / aural memory, you will actually find it easier. The tenses are very straightforward, but there is inevitably a lot of rote learning of pictorial characters.

There is a shortage of good teachers so you will need to check up that a school has sound strategies in place to teach the subject, that it isn't just a gimmick. My DDs continued to learn it outside school and now alongside largely unrelated subjects at uni.

Sorry auto correct did it's evil work. Study Mandarin alongside Management or Area Studies......

It might be a gimmick but it's a gimmick which is getting DS to eagerly learn a foreign language . I don't really care if he never uses Mandarin again once he leaves school- I have a degree in German and I think the only time I used it after graduating was to talk to an Istanbul taxi driver who spoke no English!

Zombie thread

My child had a language disorder (which normalised over time, but language is not the strength), and DC is a little nervous around foreign language language generally and is doing french in school, but I think is somewhat unhappy with a feeling that the others are all much better at it. DC does have perfect pitch however, and I thought mandarin might present a possibility to find some aspects of language that are finally easy. We've no aspirations of it being the golden ticket or anything, and maybe DC won't like it, but whether it is a "gimmick" to some people is bit relevant to us.

DD learned Mandarin for a year when she started secondary school.

Waste of time, really. She can still sing a song but that's about it.

Bar one, all the kids who continued with it to GCSE were ethnically Chinese and spoke it already - it was a "free" A* for them.

Skylark
yy - great for ethnic Chinese to get the A* - but anyone else is deluding themselves. A lot of schools near us are offering it to tempt parents who think the DC will get an advantage in the employment market - will be mostly irrelevant - getting them to do their homework in core subjects would be more beneficial.

I actually read through all of this and I think as my daughter is Chinese and is at private boarding in the UK. I can safely saythat a lot of private schools are filled with Chinese students. They can either be born locally (BBC) as I was or from overseas.

To learn Mandarin (complex Chinese)or PuTongHua ( Simplified Chinese). Is really really hard. So is it worth learning? I would have to say NO if your aren't going to leave the UK. In fact why bother learning French or Spanish?

If you do want to work or play in Europe I would learn French and Spanish. The Germans speak better English than we do. The same reasoning is also applied if you want to work or play in SE Asia. Which is made up off very different cultures and mindsets. The one commonality is that they are all taught some form of Chinese.

Well it benfit your Child working in China if they understand the language and can speak only good morning and thank you. Yes because Chinese society thrives on etiquette. Just being able to utter a few words would mean you are giving face to ypur host. This is a big YES in China. Obviously if your a BBC like me. They will expect a full conversation.

actually my daughter in addition to speaking Mandarin. To my dismay prefers French over Spanish. I do think Spanish will be more useful to her.

I've moved my son to a school very deliberately to a school with a good range of MFL are taught, including Mandarin, and he is keen on taking it up. His previous school just offered just French and Spanish. This was not remotely good enough, especially for modern business, and he will have access to at least German and Mandarin as well. We think it is very important to have it on the curriculum.

Agree with others who say don't bother.

GSCE Mandarin will be as useful as GCSE French.

Being fluent in a language and able to function in a foreign office and business arena alongside being able to read and write complex text is when having a language is useful.

Being able to read the odd road sign and order a cup of tea in faltering French (or Manderin) errr not so much. Soooo A level Mandarin would surely be a minimum and who is going to risk a precious A level to the high chance of a D when all the native speakers will get As.