Mandarin in secondary school?

[Greythorne]

There's a big debate going on at our school (France) about whether Mandarin is going to be useful or not.

Obviously, there are those who think it is an absolute must as trade with China is going to increase in importance and that is will be much more useful thqn German (which is the MFL most often offered after English here(.

Whilst I agree with that, I did read an article (possibly in The Guardian, but can't find it now) which argued that as all educated Chinese will be speaking excellent English going forward, the really is little point especially as:

-- it takes years and years to reach a decent level
-- there simply are not enough teachers of Mandarin and so there's a reliance on student teachers who come on one year exchange programmes (no continuity)
-- the cultural barriers are so high for Euopeans that even with a few years of language learning, they will never be able to compete with Chinese students / adults who have been immersed in Western culture via media / formal learning for years

I don't want to take an anti-learning position, but I really am veering towards the idea that learning Mandarin is a pointless exercise.

Can someone please convince me?

That would be nice, Pushed. I live in hope.

For example it is pontless spending millions of education programs to promote creativity whilst not giving its children access to Harry Potter.

Trouble with China is that it rewrites it's history on so many levels, even pretends to have invented Lego FFS!! It feeds this made up and narrow history to it's people who, without critical thinking or any other information, suck it up.

"it is pontless spending millions of education programs to promote creativity whilst not giving its children access to Harry Potter"

Are we still talking about China or have we moved on to talk about the USA? :)

There was a story a couple of years ago about various conservative Evangelical school districts banning Harry Potter form schools and public libraries because, in their opinion, the books promoted witchcraft.

Why do people give China such a bad time?

There are huge chunks of Americans that think that Global Warming is a Liberal conspiracy. That evolution shouldn't be taught in schools. A large chunk still think that Obama is a muslim and that he wasn't born in Hawaii. There are people with mental problems on Death Row. In terms of executing prisoners the USA isn't that far behind China.

I am not bashing the USA and saying what a great place China is but many of the criticisms thrown at China and its people can similarly be thrown at the USA or the Western world.

wordfactory the problem is that what the US invents, China makes, so yes, a few creative, innovative techie people in California get rich, but it doesn't trickle down into manufacturing wages for ordinary people in the US. Remember, China can also go quite a long way just making stuff that isn't new or innovative- most people in China don't have a car or a fridge or a flatscreen TV. If they can manufacture a cheap, reliable car, then they'll have a lot of demand, both in and out of China. Ditto consumer goods. Their huge population really helps them on this because they're not overly reliant on export markets. They dont need to come up with some amazing new invention to secure economic growth. They just need to make existing stuff cheaply.

Also, more cynically, atm China doesn't recognise patents so they just rip everything off and to be fair to them, they're good at it. Why innovate when you can plagerise? I guess that will have to stop at some point though.

IMO China and America are pretty close in terms of ignorance and arrogance, but at least Americans have the freedom to learn if they so desire. They may be fed the American dream but they can choose any path really.

The political system in the West is preferable if you ask me.

"The political system in the West is preferable if you ask me"

The political system in the West is preferable if you ask me as well but I'm not arguing about political systems.

"at least Americans have the freedom to learn if they so desire. They may be fed the American dream but they can choose any path really"

Errmmm. I think that you might find one or two black Americans that will dispute that assertion. And don't get me started on the attempts by the Right to deny women the ability to make choices about their bodies :)

Erm, Chinese women eat slimming pills, use whitening products, wear padded bras, arse lifting underwear...

If we're comparing USA and China in the freedom stakes USA wins.

Here are some reasons why:
Number of children
Free education
no bucket of water near a birth to drown the baby girl
No dying rooms full of girls
No state forced termination for disabilities

Of course your average American enjoys infinitely more freedoms than your average Chinese. It is a no-brainer arguement but don't let that stop you listing more Chinese atrocities.

How about this one? An undercover agent got some Hong Kong criminals to cross over to China. There they were arrested, convicted and executed.

I wonder what you're arguing then, really?

"IMO China and America are pretty close in terms of ignorance and arrogance, but at least Americans have the freedom to learn if they so desire. They may be fed the American dream but they can choose any path really."

Might be YO, but it is a very ignorant one.

"Errmmm. I think that you might find one or two black Americans that will dispute that assertion. And don't get me started on the attempts by the Right to deny women the ability to make choices about their bodies "

Pushed, what you say regarding black Americans and their inability to chose their own path is not correct. Some balck americans do not have the complete freedom to choose their path, but one cans say this about any number of minority groups in any number of other countries. The difference is that change is possible in the US whereas in many of the E Asian countries, such a paradigm shift in the thinking of the majority of the population is less likely to occur - at least with the power structure currently in place.

In regards to the Right - the US is a democracy and those who think along those lines will vote for those people. If you follow what is occurring in the US, this group is very fractured and these views are LOSING popularity.

Arguing? Moi? :)

Intelligence sources said that Saddam Hussein was going to be dining at a certain restaurant at a certain time. The US airforce levelled the area killing cooks, waiters, customers, local residents. Just because they thought he might be dining there.

About two years ago a team of American soldiers went to a house in Iraq in order to rape the young daughter. The people inside were shot in order to hide the crime.

Recently there has been the story of the sniper team that were photographed urinating over dead bodies.

How about all those civillians that got killed when a Blackwater protection team panicked and opened fire like that scene in Black Hawk Down when the soldiers were hosing down the buildings with their 50 cal.

My point. I don't particularly feel morally superior to another race. As for our respective goverments, they all do bad things in the name of National Security.

Look I'm not for a moment saying the USA has no flaws, I have eyes and ears afterall but like you said the average citizen has more freedom than in China.

Mom.... Would you care to expand?

That's another question: China may end up predominating economically, but who will win the culture wars? In the 20th Century half the world wanted a piece of the American dream and the end of the Cold War was seen as a victory for the American/Capitalist way. As far as I can tell that hasn't much changed and culturally the Chinese are far more interested in emulating Westerners that vice versa. That's surely going to cause a lot of friction in China as the communist and capitalist/individualist elements of their society keep rubbing up against each other.

Con........China will break under the weight of a revolution, it's inevitable. (IMO)

"That's surely going to cause a lot of friction in China as the communist and capitalist/individualist elements of their society keep rubbing up against each other"

I don't think that there are any Old School Communists left in China :) As the original leaders die of old age the 'youngsters' have replaced political dogma with pragmatism.

The Soviet Union was in a worst situation yet (violent) revolution was avoided. I suspect that China will eventuall evolve into the pre/post 1997 Hong Kong model i.e. a benevolent dictatorship.

'I don't think that there are any Old School Communists left in China'
Agreed, but they are far from liberal or democratic either! Then again I am not sure you can call modern Russia a functioning democracy either. Then again... NHS bill [sinks into depression]

How old are 'youngsters'?!!

The Chinese are a pragmatic lot. Just take a look at Hong Kong pre/post 1997 and Singapore today. None of these countries are true democracies. Yet the economy functions in a capitalist way.

This is why I don't think that the walls will come tumbling down spurred by a demand for democracy as predicted by some.

Well a few guys in their fifties have been featured on CNN as being the heir apparents.

I'm not sure about democracy either, but I do think people who have been raised to expect a kind of fairness and sense of society above everything else may want a more equal society.

Posie - that is a Western perspective :)

All adult Hong Kongers have an ID card. You can't open a bank account without one. You must carry it on you at all times and if asked, you must show a police officer your ID card. Does your typical HKonger feel his civil liberties are being infringed. I have yet to meet one that thinks so.

Contrast this with all the protests about civil liberties whenever UK politicians even talk about it.