Mandarin in secondary school?

[Greythorne]

There's a big debate going on at our school (France) about whether Mandarin is going to be useful or not.

Obviously, there are those who think it is an absolute must as trade with China is going to increase in importance and that is will be much more useful thqn German (which is the MFL most often offered after English here(.

Whilst I agree with that, I did read an article (possibly in The Guardian, but can't find it now) which argued that as all educated Chinese will be speaking excellent English going forward, the really is little point especially as:

-- it takes years and years to reach a decent level
-- there simply are not enough teachers of Mandarin and so there's a reliance on student teachers who come on one year exchange programmes (no continuity)
-- the cultural barriers are so high for Euopeans that even with a few years of language learning, they will never be able to compete with Chinese students / adults who have been immersed in Western culture via media / formal learning for years

I don't want to take an anti-learning position, but I really am veering towards the idea that learning Mandarin is a pointless exercise.

Can someone please convince me?

Conchita - I completely agree - any child can learn any language from birth. Which is why it is such a waste when education systems insist on waiting until secondary school before introducing a MFL, or, worse still, treat non-native speakers as second class citizens until their language skills are as good as those of native speakers.

And why it is why I think it is a great shame when mothers speak to their children in broken, heavily accented English rather than in their mother tongues! Such a wasted opportunity imo!

othersideofthechannel - it is harmful for children's language development to be spoken to with poor syntax/vocabulary etc in any language. Always best to be spoken to in correct whatever language.

There are children at DD's school whose English is vile because their parents insist on the Filipina maid speaking "English" to them. And then school has to try to undo the harm!

Onelittlebaby I guess the issue is, people in the west have suddenly decided that mandarin is the key thing they want their kids to learn.

My question would be, do they want their children to learn Chinese with the intention of their being able to "blend in" to the mainland Chinese economy and be hired against/work alongside locals on an equal basis in fairly standard jobs (which would require oral and written fluency in mandarin) or do they just want to meet and greet and be seen to be "making an effort" with Chinese customers and suppliers (in which case oral is fine.)? However, if the latter, then I have my doubts on how critical this will be as English fluency will be pretty high amongst anyone they're likely to come into contact with.

If the former (oral + written), then that is an absolutely massive undertaking that requires far more time/ resources than the UK curriculum could allow for it.

I take your point re HK. It's a strange one and in transition, but there are definitely far fewer jobs now that don't require Chinese language skills (many ask for fluency in mandarin, cantonese and English, and they mean oral and written). You have to be increasingly senior/ specialist to get away with being able to speak English (it's taken me 2.5 years to find one but that's still less time that it would have taken to learn Cantonese to the requisite standard ).

Totally agree RichMan

I don't doubt that there are legions out there who spent a sizeable chunk of their childhood learning Japanese so that when they reached adulthood in the 1990s they would be in a good place to exploit opportunities in the United States Of Japan in America :o

China is on the up, the West is in terminal decline. People don't want to admit that IMO and we are generally arrogant & insular. Time will tell.

Pushed, no offence but having spent time in China and reading Chinese politics and having a father who works for one of the largest shoe companies in the world (who runs production in China) I am inclined to think the Chinese society relies upon people not thinking outside the box. This is not a new thing look at the Empire throughout history, nearly every political commentator says the same.

I know many a person born in HK, who incidentally will never be considered Chinese no matter how many generations of theirs settle in China.

The Chinese lack of information and general ignorance was comparable only to Americans (according the the New York Herald), although the arrogance was overwhelmingly a fight won by the Chinese.

Having spent time there I can assure you Chinese people are different, of course they are, every culture has it's nuances pretty stupid to think it doesn't. But like I said no offence.

disclaimer. This is Chinese people living in China....not a 'race' thing at all, a culture thing.

China is on the up because it's secured pipe lines in Africa, amongst other things, and has asked for NO human rights assurances.

Arrogant and insular???.....go and spend some time in the country that freely harvests the organs from criminals.

Cortina - but do you think that our children need to learn Chinese or to have a firm grasp of economics and science in order to succeed in the new scary global world?

"I am inclined to think the Chinese society relies upon people not thinking outside the box"
I agree

"I can assure you Chinese people are different"
I agree

I don't know why you think I would be offended :)

"China is on the up, the West is in terminal decline"

The same was said about Japan about 20 years ago. Now look at them. China is kicking their butt economically speaking. Who is to say that in 20 years time India won't be kicking China's butt.

And don't be so quick to dismiss the Americans. They aren't out of the game yet. As the old joke goes - if you owe the bank a £1000 then they got you by the balls. If you owe the bank £1billion then you got THEM by the balls.

Bonsoir, I don't but I do think it'll likely be more useful than French.

Yes, you definitely can't say China has it all going one way. Like any country, it's got problems

• Poor, outdated education system
• non-functioning (although improving) criminal justice system
• Aging population- one child policy will probably be lifted soon because urban couples are choosing to have one or no children anyway
• Fragmenting communities/ extended families due to the migration phenomenon/ loss of values
• Massive wealth divide
• A lot of corruption within party system, esp at local level

However, I think it will power through for a good few decades, although India will also start to come through at some point.

I am not an economist but I struggle to see how the UK gets itself out of it's current bind, as in, what should our economic specialism be. I'm more optimistic about the US. I suppose the problem is that I don't see how we benefit from China/ India's rise (so "rising tide lifts all boats" theory doesnt necessarily work)

china has got to have one of the worst histories, it is time for them to compete in the world market surely

Pushed, you could be right. Let's see what happens. America is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world. I think China will have some terrible setbacks along the way and serious bumps in the road but will continually grow in power and economic clout. When I say arrogant & insular, Posie (?), I am thinking of those who imagine a world where America is permanently king and any other scenario is unthinkable & impossible.

Re: optimism for USA, I worry about 2013/2014. Things have to go well in election year, more money has been printed & things are so temporarily boosted. Various commentators are saying the debt situation is now very serious & 2013/2014 could be very bad times indeed. But who knows?

Really interesting debate.

I am optimistic for the US - the huge debt has been racheted up to promote growth, the key to getting out of this mess. They will not dominate the world, but don't discount them.

Back to the original topic - Mandarin will be very useful for those who wish to work for foreign companies wishing to do business in China and would . For this, speaking like a native is not necessary. I'd be very hesitant to work for a Chinese company (and my ethnicity is in the general area of China) because I know that there would be a definite ceiling for me. One thing not mentioned here is the racism and xenophobia which exists in many of the West Asian countries. Working for one of their companies, I would not be treated in the same manner of my Chinese counterparts.

cropped out would BE USEFUL.

"china has got to have one of the worst histories"

Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, Sudan etc etc etc . And don't get me started on racial segregation in Africa and the USA :o

China is no worst and no better and a lot of other countries.

Quite, Pushed. America in the nineteenth century didn't have a great track record either - things were also very turbulent, more so than in China currently. It went on to be the richest most successful country in the world a century later.

IMO unless something unusual or unexpected happens Asia will become the centre of power within the world. Throughout history the powerful centre of the world has always gravitated to where the money is, where the assets and the creditors are and that's increasingly Asia. There will soon be 1.3 billion new consumers/customers out there (China) and 3 billion if you include Asia. The Chinese also save 34% of their income. The savings class is being eroded in the USA and this doesn't bode well for the future. People say that the Chinese who have been educated overseas will return with money and management experience. I believe English and Mandarin will be the most important languages of the future. I think if you have very young children it's definitely worth teaching them Mandarin, not sure if there are any schools in the UK with an immersion programme? Even if they're not fluent I think it will prove an asset - IMO you will be exposing them to the language spoken by the richest and the most powerful on the planet by the time they are grown. It might be smart to opt to stand with the creditors rather than the debtors and who knows what unforseen advantages it might bring them in the future?

I remain cautiously optimistic for the US because, unlike China and some of the other emerging economies, it has a long history of creativity and entrpreneurism. It values an individual or a small company making it big. It's the dream.

Whereas those skills have been deliberately stiffled in China. I can't see an Apple, or Facebook, or Pixar coming from there for quite some time.

So while China can dominate heavy industry and perhaps banking, the US can still invent and design stuff that everyonein the world will want to buy.

Quite what we here in the UK will do, is anyone's guess.

I think that's changing in Asia, Wordfactory.

There's a huge drive to train students who can think out of the box and are truly creative. They're changing the school curriculum, getting rid of some exams taken early on, minimising the 'rote' element whilst keeping a very high expectation for grammar and spelling & the redoubtable work ethic etc. There are even some future leader programmes out there now for children in Asia that make Steve Job's drive and ideas feel commonplace, bland and pedestrian IMHO.

Of course these initiatives etcvwill all take time but I think we'll see things begin to change.

I was in HK recently (I have relatives there) and the place was awash with tourists form Mainland China (you can tell by the clothes and haircut :) )

There is certainly more wealth and opportunities for foreign travel these days. And with more exposure to each other then perhaps in years to come we won't see each other as a breed apart.

That's interesting Cortina.
But you're right, it will take time. When culturally these things have not just been undervalued, but actively discouraged (sometimes made illegal) for a number of generations it is a hard thing to overcome.

I think one of the main things China needs to to grapple with is freedom of information. While they continue to control what the people can and can't see/read/hear they are cutting their people off from the cultural zeitgeist.