Help please - private pre-prep took me completely by surprise today

[Lifeislikeaboxofchocolates]

My DS (later half of the year birthday) has been at a private pre-prep nursery since September. I went in to discuss another issue and the nursery teacher told me that they think that he is not going to be ready to go into reception and that we should think about deferring for a year.

My concern about this is the knock on consequences for him as he goes through the education system as he is also extremely bright (eg they are learning 1 to 9 at the moment in nursery - my DS knew these numbers a long time ago - would it really be the best thing to learn them again this time next year? I completely appreciate that they need him to be at a certain level socially for reception and it is fair to say that he is behind on the social skills side more than some of the other boys - but I am not sure that keeping him back is the answer. A bit of a ramble - I am just shocked by this - can I have your thoughts?

Hi Lifeislike
I know your son is an only child but that isn't a reason for the behaviour you mention. IMHO your son has many of the traits of aspergers (difficulty with social skills and cues, emotional immaturity and is also academically bright)- have a look at the NAS aspergers webpage (am on phone so can't do links)

It doesn't say much for the school if you a paying and they apparently can't help him properly (holding him back is not the answer! an appt with an ed psych is!)

Can you move him? If their response to this list of perfectly normal 3 year old behaviours is to suggest deferring his entry to Reception, the don't seem to know very much about children!

cake mixture he's 3!

He can always go back at 7, I've had three go through prep and 2 out of the 3 struggled until junior school. I'm doing things differently with DC4, state til 7 then prep as it was traditionally I believe.

They all sound normal to me.
Now is this a pre-prep department of a bigger prep school, or a separate pre-prep school. If the second it could be that they are trying to balance numbers.
In reception class, it is still normal (for my state educated kids) for children to have "accidents", this lessens, but the occasional one can still happen up to year 2.
My DD of 8 has only just been persuaded to stop screwing up her work, she does it when she is frustrated because it doesn't reach her extremely high standards. Refusing to allow another child to play in the shop, sounds quite normal; although at school children do have to learn to share and play with people they don't want to. But this is a skill they could still be working at at year 3.
Being slow getting dressed/undressed is also normal; we discussed whether swimming was worth it for year 2, as they take so long getting changed. Crayoning on the carpet, is also normal, especially if frustrated, but needs to be dealt with appropriately.

Actually if these are things the nursery teacher has issues with, I would suggest he needs to not be kept down, as she is not the right person to deal with him. However I would also be looking around as it might not the the right school for a lively non-conformist little boy.

At the end of the day it is your decision as to when he should start and when you think he is ready. A lot of kids aren't ready which is why we see them change and mature very quickly when they start school - same with moving on to secondary, they do adapt and catch up.
As a compromise is there a January intake into Reception which would keep him in the correct year but allow him a few months to mature and experience being the oldest at nursery etc?

To reiterate what previous posters have said, that all sounds like perfectly normal behaviour for a 3 year old.

Having said that my ds's pre-school did mention I could consider waiting to send him to school until after Christmas, he's a late August birthday so youngest in his year. With them it was more they just felt he was too young, but perfectly normal for his age, they thought the majority of August borns were too young!

I started him in September with everyone else in the end and he's been fine.

You need to make up your own mind from what you know of your Son.

I think saying your DS is "extremely bright" because he can count 1 to 9 at an early age is a bit pretentious. It is just rote learning - nothing particularly special.

To give your DS the best chance in his education take a step back and be honest with yourself. Listen to the nursery staff. Do you trust their judgement? If so, do you value their opinion? What is your gut feeling when you think about your ds in terms of his educational ability and social skills?

Delaying a child is not "failing" the child. It could perhaps be the best decision you ever made. Delaying a child can only bring benefits when they start school. Starting a child when they may not be socially ready can cause problems well into their primary education.

Try and not be emotional or overly sensitive about it because this can cloud your judgement. Remember you have the right to make the final call.

Edith ofsted have no involvement in the private sector

"A few examples of behaviour:

'Taking a book to circle time'
(to which my response would be "was he told to put the book back? and if so how did he respond? if not why did you not address the behavior at the time rather than flag it as a potential behavioral problem?" Presumably the nursery have a rule that circle time is when children sit quietly on the carpet, and while they may not want the children to bring books, the issue is more about how he responded to being told to put the book back rather than the fact he brought it in the first place.

'Refusing to let another boy play with him in the "shop"'
("Was this a one off behavior? and if so how was it addressed at the time and how did he respond to being told to share?")

'Screwing up his work'
(erm, work? ok, well my response to that would be "was this a one off or is it a regular occurrence. How has he responded to being told not to do so in future?")

'Crayoning on the carpet'
(again, a one off or regular occurrence, and what response to being told not to? Can)

'Squeezing another boys cheeks'
("Was the other boy physically hurt? and if so why was I not informed at the time?")

'Being slow to put on plimsols'
(hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.I've spent considerable amounts of time in reception and y1 classes, and that is just so normal that it doesn't even warrant a response to them IMO. In fact my ds is nine and would never get dressed in time if I didn't constantly shout encourage him to do so..)

'Being "all over the place" in the afternoon when tired'
(the key here is that he is only three and is tired. This is normal.)

'Playing by on his own - alongside others rather than with them'
(is this a constant or something that is intermittent? Because all children should be able to play by themselves, the key is whether they can interact with others.)

'The teacher mentioned that he "gets the blame" for things which are not his fault. I nearly cried at this point.'
(gets the blame from whom? The teacher? or the other children? And if the other children, what is being done to correct their misassumptions?)

Tbh op I would get him the hell out of there and move him to another and more nurturing nursery. And I would let hell freeze over before paying the probably extortionate fees to have him in that school. If this is what their nursery environment is like, the school will only be worse.

Your list makes me feel very sad- these are not unusual things for a three year old to be doing. The final point about him getting the blame for things that are not his fault sounds terrible- how does this happen- if his teachers know something is not his fault, how is he getting the blame?

I am not trained in education but I help once a week in DD?s reception class. There are children who do things on your list in her class (particularly the slow with plimsoles thing). These do tend to be the less socially developed children but they are all slowly improving with support from teaching staff. Many of these children are ahead in other areas, it seems that most children are ahead in some areas and behind in others.

I really really think that they are jumping the gun here. It is a very long time until September. I would expect them to be coming up with strategies to help your DS develop in the areas that they have highlighted as needing to improve, it sounds like they have somewhat written him off. In which case they are failing in their duties.

If they really feel that an improvement is unlikely by September then, I would be asking them if this suggests a possibility SN. I am not for one moment suggesting your DS has special needs. What I am saying is that if they feel that things won?t improve in 8 months then they should be putting a plan in place to meet his needs.

On a personal note DD is an only child. Her teacher said at parents evening that socially she is ahead of most of her peers- empathetic, good at listening, takes other?s feelings into account, plays ?nicely? (I hate that term). So please don?t think that your sons social skills are a bit behind because he is an only child- this may or may not be the case. All children are different and IMO blaming this on his only child status is a step on the road to mummy guilt that you do not need to take.

I really really hope that you can sort this out for your own peace of mind.

"ofsted have no involvement in the private sector"

Then why are there so many private school inspection reports on their website? Including all EYFS, regardless of setting? Are they lying about having done these?

DS1 is in the nursery at a private pre-prep. He'll start school there in Sept. His best friend in nursery is a little boy who is repeating the year in nursery (didn't move up last September with the rest of his nursery class.)

He's a lovely, bright, friendly boy. The reason he didn't move up was because he was young for his year, and not 'socially ready'.

His mum says it's fantastic to see how he's blossomed this year - he has come out of himself, is much more outgoing, plays 'co-operatively' instead of alongside, and loves going every day.

He has some friends still from his original year (goes to their parties etc.) but is very much part of his new year, and will go through school with them.

I think it's one of the advantages of private, to be able to do this.

Well at the pre-prep my dc's attend - staying down a year for summer birthdays is actively sought by many parents but not so much by the school. Many parents feel it gives their children an advantage to be the oldest in the year both socially and academically.

I'd talk more to the school to find out exactly why they are suggesting it - after all still quite a way to September and a lot can change during that time with small children.

Getting the blame is I think fairly normal in the preschool setting.

I speak from both sides here. With ds the preschool mentioned that because his name had come up in "dubious circumstances" his was one of the names children tended to assume he was involved when things went well.

They were aware of this, and made sure they firstly kept an eye so they knew where he was at all times so if he was blamed they would a lot of the time be able to say that he wasn't in the area, and secondly make sure that they heard his side (in the knowledge of he was more likely to admit to something he hadn't done, than the other way round) and not take one child's word for it.

I was very pleased that they were aware this was happening so he didn't automatically get the blame if someone else said so. I would think it was a good thing for them to mention.

On the other side, I remember dd2 telling of this dreadful thing X did in her class. I'd known he wasn't in school that day-he was in A&E as I had been. When I pointed this out to her, she thought a bit and said "No actually I think it was Y-but if X was there it would probably have been him"

She wasn't being nasty, just tended to assume it was always X, and wasn't the only child who did either.

Ofsted are involved in inspecting all nurseries and pre-schools up to the end of the EYFS, private or otherwise.

This pre-prep is linked to a prep - but the prep is not as popular (and we would not be thinking of sending our ds there) - hence if deferred how would that work on transfer to another school?

Sorry not being big headed about the "brightness" point - just recalling what they have previously said to me. Don't want to come across as someone who is obsessed with how clever their child is!

If he is going into a state school then it will be a problem.

If he is going to another prep you will have to check - ALL of the preps near us with no exception will only take children in the correct year (ie following the state) so you need to make sure this doesn't change.

The overwhelming opinion on here is that your son displays normal behaviours (from your list) for a 3 year old - do you have reasons to worry at home? generally a parent's gut instinct is right. Do you think he would benefit from doing another year at nursery? Honestly in my experience reception is not that different from nursery, only marginally. So he has another year and a half before being in a more "formal" setting....

Itisonlyyearfour

Gut instinct - he is behind socially than some of his peers. Not sure that he would benefit from being another year in nursery.

DeWe - it is other children - did this change with your ds as he progressed?

Ofsted inspect all private schools where places attract Early Years funding up to and including Reception.

Some prep schools organise their classes by birthday as opposed to alphabetical etc especially for the early years, putting all the summer birthdays in one class etc, the headmistress of my DS's pre-prep school said in her opinion some boys with summer birthdays did not catch up emotionally etc until at least 8. How does the pre-prep organise themselves, what do the reception teachers say they would do to help a boy (from say another nursery whom they nothing about prior to entrance) who is bright but might be a emotionally young ? Does you feel the school understands the development of boys ? If you are not comforted by the answers look for another school soon. IMO its better to make the judgement about keeping a child down a year when they are slightly older and you have more evidence etc. I know of a friend who did exactly that at age 9 for her August birthday boy (but 8 weeks prem ) , she would not have dreamed of it at age 4!

MrsCampbellBlack/redridingwolf - my concern is his next school - they take children at 7 into year 3. I don't think it would be an option to go in at 8?

I think it depends on the school and you'd need to check - particularly if he's a late August birthday.

Its tricky though. I have an August boy whose in the right year and have really noticed this year (yr 3) how all the A and B sports teams are filled by the older boys and the c team is all the summer boys who are generally smaller. So I do see why people think its a good idea to hold children back and thats before even going into the social/emotional maturity which I know we had issues with. And the constant comments from last teacher of 'he's very young' with a sigh - ummm, yes I know that.

Sorry to go on but I do feel its very hard for some summer born children especially if some allowances aren't made by teachers.

There a big load of trouble when it was brought in - interference for the first time in private schools up to age 5, imposition of a series of curriculum requirements never had to bothered with and not having to bother had allowed many academic privates to steam ahead of course because box ticking in the state sector is just a drain on teacher resources, so yes ofsted is involved at that age.

I don't know if you read/saw my post earlier - my ds is in a similar situation and his teacher had a very similar chat with me the other day. The big difference is he has siblings so I know he has the skills, he just needs a lot of time to settle into new situations and come out of his shell.

I talked to his teacher again today and turned it round on the nursery. What are they doing to help him socially? Are they supporting him and providing opportunities for him to interact with smaller groups of children in an informal situation? How does he really compare with other kids in nursery, surely he's not the only one who struggles socially? From my point of view this is what I am sending him to nursery for! I would be very angry unhappy with the nursery if they basically said they are not meeting my child's needs and don't appear to be doing anything about it, when what you've described is very normal 3yr old behaviour. He still has 6 months in nursery to prepare for Reception, if I think back how much my ds has progressed and grown up in 6months I'm sure he'll be ready.

Naturalbaby - thanks. This does make me feel better. I am trying to get out of thinking negatively now and try and think of solutions to this.

Anyone any ideas?

There was some interesting ideas re role play etc posted earlier. Anyone who has gone through this and come out the other side??