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Original poster

Competitively rank students by results say Gove

480 replies

noblegiraffe · 26/11/2011 14:17

Our esteemed Education Secretary has praised an academy in London which ranks pupils every term by their results in each subject.

Now I'm sure that parents of the kid who comes top will be pleased and proud, but what about the poor kids who are less academically able or who have SEN who are destined to by told term after term that they are rubbish? That their achievements, though they may be the product of hard work and great determination are of less value than a more academically able student who has slacked off and winged a good result on the test? How will that do anything but completely demotivate them and destroy their self-esteem?

What the fuck is he thinking?

If any of you have any respect for Gove as Education Minister, I sincerely hope that this changes your mind.

OP posts:
Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2011 12:16

In my experience with kids, the pleasure of constantly coming top or constantly being in the top set wears off or becomes replaced with stress at having to maintain that position.

Whereas the kids in the bottom set, like I said, do become systematically demotivated at being presented with poor scores or being in the bottom set.

OP posts:
twinklytroll · 27/11/2011 12:18

I agree noble that competing against yourself is probably the most effective form of competition. But we can do more than one thing.

I have just given back some a level essays , I have a group of two girls and a boy all working at an A* all going through the Oxbridge process. They are very driven by the idea of beating each other .

I have the same scenario in another class between three girls and two boys . At the moment the top achiever is not the cleverest but the one working their socks off because they like the idea of being the top of the class. That does not mean that others in the class are not praised if they meet/ beat their target or show signs of great improvement.

twinklytroll · 27/11/2011 12:20

Noble I have taught the four top achievers in my year 13 set for years, they have always been like that. Anecdotal evidence - yes but that it is what I see. It does help if you have a cluster of very able students rather than one or two outliers .

My bottom set students are very motivated because I choose a reward system that suits them.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2011 12:22

twinkly, I agree that some groups can get motivated by the idea of competition within the group. But I don't think it should be a blanket rule and certainly shouldn't be applied to everyone from the top down. My bottom set kid who is pleased for getting the top mark in the bottom set test - does he really need that putting into a year group context?

OP posts:
twinklytroll · 27/11/2011 12:23

I agree totally that it should not be applied across the whole school.

mumsneedwine · 27/11/2011 12:35

Our school give the kids their own grade, the top & bottom mark in their class and also the average. This means the ones who want to can be competitive and others can just see how they are doing in relation to their peers. It seems to work and the kids are mostly pretty motivated without being made to feel bad. As it's all done on line via there own secure login page it's very private (& a lot of kids don't even look at it as really aren't bothered about anyone else), but some seem to love it and work harder so they can get the top score. One of mine has looked at it once in 5 years and another checks it every term. The parents can also see it !! I would hate for my kids to be ranked and think it could also work the opposite as Gove intends as some kids would compete to come last !!! Has he met many teenagers lately - some do not find being clever cool and if you give them a chance to show how little they care they will love it. Sad, but true.

NotQuiteSoDesperate · 27/11/2011 13:07

For those of you who think that this kind of public ranking is acceptable. I would love you to have been there when my son (ASD and learning difficulties) was banging his lead against the wall and screaming "I'm thick, I'm stupid!" because he had realised that he was in a bottom set. You must be assuming that your child will be at the top of the ranking.

I was the sort of child who was and I remember the pressure to stay at the top.

prh47bridge · 27/11/2011 13:19

noblegiraffe - Reading Gove's speech again he seems to be saying that the rankings at half term are private. I haven't looked at the school and don't know it at all so I'm not in a position to comment.

senua · 27/11/2011 13:19

"My bottom set kid who is pleased for getting the top mark in the bottom set test"

Eh? Again.
How come we are supposed to feel all warm and fuzzy about him being pleased about his test score but the most able are dismissed with a 'they are only pleased for a moment before they succumb to failure anxiety'

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2011 13:25

senua, I didn't say that the kids who get the top score aren't pleased.

The most able will get the top score in their group and be pleased within their group, and the bottom set kid will get the top score within his group and be pleased within his group.

Does the bottom set kid need that pleasure removing by having it placed in the context of the top set kid's achievement just to further boost the top set kid? The top set kid already knows he's top set.

OP posts:
Xenia · 27/11/2011 13:51

Children tend to know who is doing well and ask each other their marks. You can usually ask at parents' evenings too how their marks are relative to others' marks. They will be competing when they turn 18 or leave university. I think most teachers get it right (and parents) and try to praise those who have done their best even if they are in the bottom set. My oldest was in the bottom of 5 sets for something, got an A in the GCSE and did fine. What you need is to ensure they have lots of self confidence and the will to do well.

claig · 27/11/2011 15:03

'I'll always tell the kids the class average for any test, and the top mark (but not who got it).'
I think this is defeatist, discourages effort and achievement and denies well-deserved praise and recognition to high achievers as if it is some kind of dirty secret who got the top mark.

'The top set kid already knows he's top set.'
He/she may do, but they want others to know too. They want and deserve recognition just as any other child does.

TalkinPeace2 · 27/11/2011 15:15

claig
my DD is that top kid : her best friend is the only person who ever takes that slot (cohort is 290)
I know from talking to their friends that being within 10 marks of X and Y is kudos itself in the top set
and for the lower set kids, asking a question they cannot immediately answer is worth kudos

the point is that TEACHERS know what motivates their individual groups
and a good teacher will apply a different strategy to each group

politicians should just BUTT OUT
and ask every school to EITHER achieve over a certain academic mark or a certain CVA mark (or both) and then just
LEAVE THEM TO IT
teaching to the test is SO destructive

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2011 15:18

claig, it's not a dirty little secret and they do get praise and recognition. The class find out who got the top mark fairly rapidly as soon as I hand the papers back.

And I'm surprised that you think that kids don't already know who are in the top sets.

OP posts:
claig · 27/11/2011 15:20

'the point is that TEACHERS know what motivates their individual groups'

I don't agree with that.
I know what I was motivated by at school and it is what the teacher twinklytroll says, not what teh teacher noblegiraffe says. Gove is changing the mindset,

Osborne and Gove have said that they want to encourage more elitism in education. This is a change from what has gone on for decades now and I think it is about time.

claig · 27/11/2011 15:21

'And I'm surprised that you think that kids don't already know who are in the top sets'

Kids want open recognition by their teacher who they look up to and admire. They don't want their trusted teacher to hide their successes under a bushel. It's almost as if success is shameful.

NotnOtter · 27/11/2011 15:22

I'm all for it. My sons school did similar and it really drove the students

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2011 15:31

"I know what I was motivated by at school"

Oh god, another education expert because they went to school.

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TalkinPeace2 · 27/11/2011 15:32

claig
how old are you?
it matters
when the last Tory Government set the limit on class sizes, to recruit the teachers they dropped the entry requirement for BEd courses down to 2 E's at A level.
We use to call them the LSU giggling morons
Those teachers and their national counterparts are now in their late 30's.
The good ones have trained and CPD'd and are excellent
the bad ones - hidden by heads from the same cohort - need sacking

luckily Teacher training has tightened back up - and PGCE's are the answer -

DH goes to between 150 and 200 schools a year. He's seen the lot. Oddly enough the Dfe will not hire him as a consultant (we've applied) as he'd blow most of their "theories" out of the water.

claig · 27/11/2011 15:42

'Oh god, another education expert because they went to school.'

No just one of the millions in this country who doesn't agree with your noble views, noblegiraffe, even though you are a teacher who passed your PGCE. I think you missed a few courses on motivation.

claig · 27/11/2011 15:44

TalkinPeace2, I'm in my mid forties

claig · 27/11/2011 15:50

'I've found which school it is: it's Burlington Danes, which was on the TES shortlist for outstanding school of the year.'

I guess the headmaster at Burlington Danes is also not as expert as noblegiraffe. People have different views. I don't trust anyone who says they are an "expert" and that all contrary views are invalid. Fortunately, nor does Gove.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2011 16:00

claig, what is your experience to back up your views? Apart from your own individual experience at school, of course.

OP posts:
claig · 27/11/2011 16:02

Just common sense, the same as Gove and the headteacher at Burlington Danes, "on the TES shortlist for outstanding school of the year"

claig · 27/11/2011 16:02

No PGCE, just bags of PG Tips

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