Competitively rank students by results say Gove

[noblegiraffe]

Our esteemed Education Secretary has praised an academy in London which ranks pupils every term by their results in each subject.

Now I'm sure that parents of the kid who comes top will be pleased and proud, but what about the poor kids who are less academically able or who have SEN who are destined to by told term after term that they are rubbish? That their achievements, though they may be the product of hard work and great determination are of less value than a more academically able student who has slacked off and winged a good result on the test? How will that do anything but completely demotivate them and destroy their self-esteem?

What the fuck is he thinking?

If any of you have any respect for Gove as Education Minister, I sincerely hope that this changes your mind.

Why are people fixated on effort vs achievement?

We give prizes for both achievement and industry. Both are valued.

For the member who wanted an award for community service, buy a trophy, name it after yourself and present it to the school. Why is it always up to other people to have the initiative?

Claig maybe you're right. I just have had so many parents (in both 'rough' schools and 'nice' schools) who are really actually aggressive and want things their way, unreasonably ie won't listen to another point of view, don't take into account what is best for other students and the group/school as a whole, won't believe their child could be at fault when their child has been stirring trouble etc.

I'm just jaded

'Why are people fixated on effort vs achievement?'

Because achievement counts more than effort in life, and any system which pretends otherwise harms the achievement potential of its pupils. Manchester City won't get any prizes for getting knocked out of teh Champions League, however much effort they put in.

I bet Boris Johnson and David Cameron and Diane Abbott's son, educated at the prestigious City of London Boys' School, weren't awarded prizes for effort.

beatenbyayellowteacup, I can imagine how tiring that must get. But, all in all, I think it is a good thing. It shows that the parents have high expectations, even if tehy are misguided. It shows they take an interest and want the best. It is much better than apathy and an acceptance and defeence to authority as in teh old days. TYhey want exactly the same as what Diane Abbott wanted for her son. They won't accept second best. It is that type of pressure that eventually forces government to invest more, change the status quo and increase standards.

I am very wary of effort grades.

Actually, I believe them to be utterly worthless; worse than useless, in fact.

I wrote my thesis on effort grades, and I think they are a Bad Thing. I would be wary of relying on them to give an accurate picture of a child's progress, as they are for the main part, completely arbitrary.

Effort is impossible to accurately measure, and to grade it is absurd. One person cannot possibly know how much effort another is making in any given task. The marks at best are meaningless, at worse they communicate a very negative message- effort grades are often used as 'compensation' for low attainment grades, and teachers can unwittingly communicate the message "However hard you try, you will only ever be average" by giving a low attainment grade paired with a high effort grade; ironically when they are trying to communicate exactly the opposite.

Oh, and Burlington Danes school does not have such a good reputation within the borough.

Yes sometimes it is. However, usually it's "you calling my daughter a liar?" or "you're picking on my son, everyone else is wearing redlaces/hoody/trainers/whatever" or "do you have children?" etc.

I've had to stop meetings because the parents were so rude. I've also had to stop parents swearing at their children in meetings, and once a mother hit her daughter over the head with a book in a meeting with me.

Very good post, tethersend

"One person cannot possibly know how much effort another is making in any given task."

I agree. I once worked in a school where you had to give an effort grade for each piece of work and that was ridiculous.

But effort over a term, in lessons and in homework? I think you can tell the slackers from the keen beans.

I also think, tethersend, that it is important to communicate to parents that their child is slacking off even if they are getting good grades.

"I think you can tell the slackers from the keen beans."

I disagree. For some children, arriving to school at all takes far more effort than the child who achieves highly and does extra work- I don't think we can tell; certainly not to the extent whereby we can accurately grade it.

that is assuming that the parents give a shit

did you watch "Living with the Amish" the other night
and the slurry speaking pierced lazy arse
who, it turned out was the son of a jailed arsonist who had been passed from pillar to post by "the system"
how would you rate his "effort grades" when nobody is there at home to give a toss how he does

"Burlington Danes school does not have such a good reputation within the borough."

Do you know the area? I'd love to have some inside info on why the GCSE results are so astonishingly good at the top of the table in apparently non-selective comps.

It's West London...

'For the member who wanted an award for community service, buy a trophy, name it after yourself and present it to the school. Why is it always up to other people to have the initiative?'

I disagree with this. The whole point of recognition for achievement is for the teacher or school to recognise it in the child, and all children want and deserve that type of recognition. It has to be real, it has to be public, it has to be from the teacher or school and in front of their peers. Keep it real and that develops the self esteem of pupils who deserve a reward for achievement. And working for the community is an activity that should be developed and encouraged in young people with real rewards. That way we educate people to work for teh benefit of society and not just for their own City bonuses.

" For some children, arriving to school at all takes far more effort than the child who achieves highly and does extra work"

Perhaps, for some individuals, but there is a level of personal knowledge of the child that goes into assessing them.

Quite, noblegiraffe

Schools do tend to have good pastoral care (at least the ones I've worked in) with a pretty good idea of the background of each individual student (sometimes as it changes on a day-to-day basis).

agree. I once worked in a school where you had to give an effort grade for each piece of work and that was ridiculous

We have to do this

But Tether's point is extremely important.

Even if you could tell how hard someone is trying (which I don't think you can) - if you give them an A for effort and an E for achievement, that is writing them off far more than just giving them an E.

You need to have high expectations. High expectations for academic achievement - not for effort.

And if a child get's an E for effort and an A* for achievement - what then? Do you tell them to try harder?

Effort does not count. Trying hard and not achieving is not something to celebrate.

As teachers, we have a 'pretty good idea' of the background of each individual student- but how dangerous to assume we know everything!

Statistically, there will be children we have taught every day for years who were being horrifically abused (for example) and we had- and continue to have- absolutely no idea.

There is no way you or I as a teacher can accurately ascertain the level of effort a student is making. To assess as if we can is inaccurate and ultimately harmful.

Actually quite a lot of academic research says that rewarding for effort is far more effective than rewarding for results. We always reward our children for the amount of effort they spend on revising for exams, rather than the actual results. And it's pretty obvious to me when they've spent time really thinking about an essay topic and writing it, rather than just scribbling the first thing that comes into their heads.

And both my two, at very academic, very competitive private schools, receive effort marks on their reports. And prizes are awarded to children who have put in a lot of effort, as well as to children who have done academically very well during the year.

Gove is fucking bonkers. I am genuinely scared at what he going to do to education and the long term effect that it going to have on the kids we teach. Harking on about Victorian values. Fucking idiot. Gah. Fuck the fuck off Mr.Gove. Seriously, fuck off.

I realise there is no intelligent argument in any of that, but I feel better for it.

Wouldn't it be great if mnhq could get the fucker on here for a web chat.

Abra1d, I would be very interested to see the research and how effort was measured for the purposes of it; do you know if they used their own definition or was it teacher assessed?

And also was the effort on things like reports, or was it verbal praise for effort given at the time?

I've just been reading this interesting report about cheating, which the Head of Burlington Danes might do well to read.

"When schools stress performance goals, instructional policies and practices tend to emphasize grades and demonstrating one's ability (Anderman & Maehr, 1994) In such environments, students often seek the easiest way to attain their goals (Maehr & Midgley, 1996). Indeed, why should a student be concerned about the inherent value of learning if, for example, the reward of getting on the honor roll is based purely on the grade that the student earns? If students perceive that success in school is defined in terms of grades and ability, then they may feel more justified to cheat.
Data from the present study support this notion: Students who perceived that their schools emphasized performance goals were more likely to report engaging in cheating behaviors"

Worrying about school was also related to cheating behaviour. I suspect that having your grade published for all to see would increase worrying, and hence cheating.

It also talks about 'self-handicapping', how students shape the circumstances around their academic success or failure so they can attribute their failure to those circumstances. So you get the child who messes around in class or doesn't revise or doesn't complete the work so when inevitable failure comes, they can say 'yeah, well I didn't try'.