Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Competitively rank students by results say Gove

480 replies

noblegiraffe · 26/11/2011 14:17

Our esteemed Education Secretary has praised an academy in London which ranks pupils every term by their results in each subject.

Now I'm sure that parents of the kid who comes top will be pleased and proud, but what about the poor kids who are less academically able or who have SEN who are destined to by told term after term that they are rubbish? That their achievements, though they may be the product of hard work and great determination are of less value than a more academically able student who has slacked off and winged a good result on the test? How will that do anything but completely demotivate them and destroy their self-esteem?

What the fuck is he thinking?

If any of you have any respect for Gove as Education Minister, I sincerely hope that this changes your mind.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 05/12/2011 18:31

I agree that you can just suddenly click with maths and come on really quickly. I'm appalled at the reports some people are making that kids are set in KS2 with no room for changing sets. All the research on setting I've read concludes that you must allow for frequent movement between sets for it to be effective and fair.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 05/12/2011 18:39

I have to say that I've never been particularly motivated by being top, or competition. In fact I think I'm more likely to opt out of playing if I think there is pressure to 'win'.

When we played the StarPower game at university it was interesting for me to see how I reacted to it. I was in the middle group, there was potential to move up to the elite group, and pressure on you do try to do it. My response was to not care, and to not try. I dutifully played the game, but I didn't try at all and didn't care about the outcome.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 05/12/2011 18:43

'What is the naturally talented person doing while the less able works hard to catch up? If they are pushing themselves forward just as hard and grasping new concepts more quickly than the less talented, then the tortoise will never catch up with the hare. This is when natural talent becomes something really special.'

This is when you have to ask why all children are taught maths. If the 'naturally talented' are always going to be ahead, why even bother trying with those who don't have that special thing? Isn't it just pointless?

My DD3 is a quiet girl, quiet to the point of being almost withdrawn. She is a generally bright girl as far as I can see, but has never 'shone' in any subject throughout her years in school. Last year, I forced her to join the drama club in hopes that she would be encouraged out of her shell, and lo and behold, she has emerged as a competent member of the troupe who takes direction very well.

She was placed in the second tier of maths this year (she has been anxious about tests throughout her school career, plus the class took the big one that determined this year's placement the week we were moving house), but because I badgered the teacher for the book and the course outline that the top tier was doing, she has been working at it at home on top of the regular work her own maths teacher sets her class. She has advanced further through the book than the top set at this point, both by sitting down and working through it on her own and by asking for help when she runs into something she can't follow.

She never saw herself as a potential Portia in a school play, but she was cast in the role this term, and she never saw herself as someone who rightfully belonged in the top tier for maths either; despite the fact that the top class is full (so the school tells me) she is forging ahead and has now come to believe that she can master something that originally looked like impenetrable gobbledygook to her. I suppose I am a very pushy mother for doing this, but I don't think children who avoid maths will have half the opportunities that are available to those with good results so I think pushing is warranted. I think most children of average or above average intelligence can be all rounders and that if maths results are falling below the other subjects, then the problem is one of self perception, mixed with the maths myths and maybe even poor teaching.

It has been very rewarding to see DD3's confidence in herself grow but it has taken a massive effort on her part (and on mine and her older sister's) to get her to this point. She has even started discussing her taste in music with some other classmates she views as kindred spirits. She has a minority view and thinks most of what her classmates like is rubbish but would never have dared stick her neck out until now.

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2011 18:50

"This is when you have to ask why all children are taught maths."

Because when I talk about someone being naturally gifted at maths, I am talking about 1 or maybe 2 children in a year group (secondary). You don't need to be naturally gifted at maths to get an A* at GCSE.

OP posts:
claig · 05/12/2011 19:01

'I have to say that I've never been particularly motivated by being top, or competition. In fact I think I'm more likely to opt out of playing if I think there is pressure to 'win'.

When we played the StarPower game at university it was interesting for me to see how I reacted to it. I was in the middle group, there was potential to move up to the elite group, and pressure on you do try to do it. My response was to not care, and to not try. I dutifully played the game, but I didn't try at all and didn't care about the outcome.'

But this means that you will not "raise your game" and you will not excel and achieve your full potential. Competition drives people on. Marathon runners need to have a front runner who sets the pace.

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2011 19:12

"you will not excel and achieve your full potential."

Indeed I won't. Haven't. Yet still I'm happy. Strange, isn't it?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 05/12/2011 20:32

(I think marathon runners are a bad example as most people running a marathon have a personal goal that is not related to 'winning' or even the presence of other runners in the event, and the front runners can be up to 8 hours ahead or more, making the idea of pace setting moot.)

claig · 05/12/2011 20:49

Yes, it is a bad example, but you know what I am saying

and well done to your DD3. Everyone is capable of much much more than they think and I think that tutors can be a great help to everyone. The more you understand and achieve, the more confidence you get.

claig · 05/12/2011 20:51

How many pupils at your DD's school? Are US schools larger in size than UK schools in terms of the number of pupils?

mathanxiety · 05/12/2011 22:02

The primary school the DCs attended in the US was probably on the large size compared to some in England and certainly in Scotland (450-500ish enrollment aged 4 to 14; it was a parish K-8th grade school). The (public) high school the oldest two graduated from had about 3,500 students spread over four years. School size varies in the US though and some public school districts operate middle schools for 6th to 8th grades (age 12, 13, 14). Class size was usually in the low 20s in primary school for my DCs, but in high school it varied from subject to subject.

MillyR · 05/12/2011 22:59

This star power game is a really poor analogy for intellect or academic attainment.

Cortina · 06/12/2011 08:33

Mathanxiety - what's your view on cognitive ability testing/PIPS etc for young children? I expect these assessments can be difficult to argue with and could lead to cognitive bias? I would have scored poorly I suspect but strangely had the potential to do rather well.

mathanxiety · 06/12/2011 17:24

I think PIPS is far more useful than cognitive ability testing, as long as it is followed up by some intervention for those children with deficiencies identified. Children who can be trained in the early years of school or even in nursery to use thinking skills and risk-benefit analysis to solve problems will usually avoid the sort of disruption issues that teachers find off-putting, may develop a more positive self image as their behaviour is rewarded in the classroom, and may become better able to gauge the relationship between cause and effect, thus engage more with the school learning process. I think socialisation is what schools should be concentrating on in the early years and that any strong academic focus is actually misplaced. I think good socialisation and the development of resilience (the ability to try new things and to bounce back from failure) would be more profitable educationally in the long term.

Cognitive ability testing relies on correct administration in an optimal environment in order for any meaningful data to be extracted. Physically, the child being tested needs to be able to hear accurately and understand the instructions in whatever language they are given. He or she needs to be able to see the symbols clearly. The child needs to be co-operative and wide awake, healthy and preferably fed that morning. Ideally, the child needs to be ready emotionally for the test and not distracted by traumatic events in his or her life (witnessing domestic violence, suffering violence, strain or worry about a family member's health, arrival of new baby, etc). In some tests, such as Woodcock Johnson III iirc, the child is given feedback in the process of a section of the test and depending on individual resilience (which is not the area being tested) might be put off by hearing that he or she had got an answer wrong. In addition, the sort of puzzles and tasks set for the subjects may be completely unfamiliar to some but familiar to others depending on what parents see fit to provide in the home environment; children who are thrown by the appearance of the test, the surroundings, the appearance or other personal feature of the test administrator (smelly, pretty, old and wrinkly, scary, etc.) or the tasks themselves may not feel comfortable enough to settle down and focus.

I think the best you can really say about results is that on that day, so-and-so performed well under the conditions that pertained. I think you need a wide range of assessment over time to see where a student really is. However, I don't think that assessing where a student is tells everything a teacher should know about where a student could be, given sufficient effort by all parties to come up with an appropriate teaching and learning strategy for that individual.

The science of cognitive ability testing is not value free and conclusions may not hold for all cultures or even for all personalities (the nature vs. nurture debate rears its head here). I think tests are most useful in identifying children on the upper and lower ends of the scale -- those who may be considered G&T or those who have serious intellectual challenges. In the very young, it's difficult to discriminate what lies behind a low score however. A zero due to stroppiness looks exactly the same as a zero due to incomprehension. They don't really say much about the potential of the middle, and actually they don't really say much about the potential of the G&T crowd either, since realisation of potential often depends on emotional, psychological and even cultural and economic factors.

Cortina · 07/12/2011 08:27

Thank you so much for taking the time to post such a detailed reply mathsanxiety, I really appreciate it.

I've found recently that my son was receiving differentiated work in maths from the start in Y1. I had no idea at the time and only know by comparing maths books with other friends after year end. He was the youngest in the class and had missed much of reception due to illness. Things like number bonds, he went only to 6 at first the most able to 100 plus. We set for maths at the end of Y2 (large state primary) but I've realised at that point my son hadn't accessed the same curriculum as the top 20% or so. Every piece of work he did fell that bit short of what the others were doing. He ended KS1 a shade above average and has been placed in middle set which is probably the right place for him currently. I feel confident his maths will improve (with my help) and he may be able to win a place in the top set in time - thinking of the 11+ some years away. The top set are accessing a slightly different curriculum taking things further and their homework assumes greater cognitive ability. My friend's son is in the top set and I am able to make sure my son is covering the work. The difficulty is there is unlikely to be room in the top set for my son should his work warrant it in time. Those in the top set are not going to lose their ability (as the school seems to view it).

I am not sure whether this is common? I had no idea as a parent that my son was doing only basic maths in Y1 and others were being stretched further. The top set are seen as the potential level 5s and 6s at the end of KS2 and will have higher grade/level projections that my son and others like him. I wish I'd been told that my son was only doing the basics in Y1 - I would have been happy to expose him to more at home. It's the lack of transparency about these issues that irks me. How many others would just passively assume their child wasn't as bright as the others? Be interested on your opinion on this and whether you consider it common and worth challenging?

mathanxiety · 07/12/2011 20:58

I think the trick (given the appalling practice of setting so young) is to become that mother who asks how DS is doing weekly and who works with him at home (keeping the tone friendly, positive, jolly, lots of high fives, expect to go one step forward and two steps back frequently).

There are a good few sites you and your your DS could work at:
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

Sylvan tutoring recommended sites here
You can pick and choose levels and topics on each site -- ignore adding American coins for instance.

You could buy and use cuisenaire rods. Suggestions here for resources to make the most of them

Or follow a Miquon maths programme at home (depending on how much time and resources you care to devote to this). This blog has some interesting ideas about maths related games.

I would try to lay my hands on that other book somehow, or ask to photocopy it and if you think your DS could manage the exercises (look hard at them first to be sure), let him give it a try.

I feel that children should only be differentiated according to learning styles in the primary years, and that 'achievement' in Reception should have nothing to do with anything. I am not holding my breath waiting for that to happen.

noblegiraffe · 07/12/2011 21:09

"I feel that children should only be differentiated according to learning styles in the primary years"

Um. Highly discredited, no?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 08/12/2011 05:47

If learning style and innate interest in one sort of learning activity over another are of no account, then headed down the toilet is the whole concept of Montessori up to age 6, where children are assumed to absorb information by freely using the many manipulatives and activities available to them in the class environment.

Criticisms of learning style as an approach to teaching children is based on assumptions that teachers have correctly followed instructional methods in order to capitalise on strengths of the children; teachers teach according to their own comfort level and their strengths just as students learn in their own way, on allegations of flawed theories and lack of testing (this is a standard criticism of all research), and on the idea that assigning a child to a certain learning style would represent harmful labeling of children (which is also a criticism of early setting). Highly discredited? - Not really. Still up for debate? - Perhaps.

So many variables are at play in a school setting - quality of teachers, quality of the school leadership, quality of the infrastructure, involvement of families, financing, curriculum, etc., - that it is hard to determine for certain what any given approach has yielded. (The same can be argued for the results of individual ability testing for young children, with different variables at play). One thing that is sure, however, is that children can't learn what they haven't even been taught because they have been placed in a lower set and exposed to different material from a different book. You have to be careful when you differentiate at a young age according to perceived ability that your school doesn't have a subtle curriculum that is teaching children unintended lessons about themselves, resulting in self fulfilling prophecies.

Cortina · 08/12/2011 10:49

Thanks again, mathsanxiety. I believe the danger with 'learning styles' is that schools see them as permanent and pervasive. I have been on a course with teachers and all were nodding sagely as we were told children could be sorted into different types of learners.

In our primary school one of the teachers told me, whilst helping in the class, that one little boy was one of their 'visuals'. 'Visuals' were clearly seen here as being a lot brighter than their friends the 'kinaesthetics' - who were more easily distracted and perhaps less bright? Some 'learning styles' had higher status than others and all helped to unconsciously or otherwise label a young child IMO. Guy Claxton put it well when he said learning styles were: 'temporary snapshots of evolving habits and preferences not life sentences'.

A review of learning styles was carried out by the University of Newcastle in 2004 who concluded: 'Some of the best known and commercially most successful (learning style tests) have such low reliability, poor validity, and negligible impact on pedagogy, that we recommend that their use in practice should be discontinued.'.

This 'brain friendly learning' stuff was all very trendy a while ago it seems and Howard Gardner of 'Multiple Intelligences' fame said he was very unhappy with how some of this ideas had been taken too literally and used out of context by schools.

mathanxiety · 08/12/2011 14:31

It was indeed very trendy, and misapplied. Schools are desperate to find a way to reach large groups of the student population.

A new trend to watch is single sex schools for boys, especially in lower socio-economic strata. It will be interesting to see how that pans out. I have seen arguments for the different learning style and interests of boys and even arguments that boys should not go to school until 6 as their behaviour tends to be mislabelled 'troublesome' and compared negatively to girls' before then.

noblegiraffe · 09/12/2011 09:14

"children are assumed to absorb information by freely using the many manipulatives and activities available to them in the class environment."

is very different to

"children should only be differentiated according to learning styles in the primary years"

Children selecting their own tasks is not the same as assessing each child, assigning them a 'preferred learning style' and then setting them tasks only based on their 'preferred learning style'. Which is bollocks.

Anyway, I cater for all types of learners in my maths classroom. I write maths on the board (visual), talk them through it (aural) and then they do some questions (kinaesthetic) Wink

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 09/12/2011 18:01

No it's not -- in practice children tend to select tasks/activities according to their comfort level or affinity with a particular activity or item and work the lesson into their consciousness by means of that particular method. It is self assignment to a learning method, self identification of a learning style.

... 'assessing each child, assigning them a 'preferred learning style' and then setting them tasks only based on their 'preferred learning style' -- no wonder it has been assessed as a failure if that is how the average teacher thinks it should be applied.

noblegiraffe · 09/12/2011 18:11

"children should only be differentiated according to learning styles"

This is your statement, and in it the children are passive recipients of the differentiation. The children are not selecting their own task.

"if that is how the average teacher thinks it should be applied"

It's how I've seen it been applied many, many times. I've seen the quizzes 'What style of learner are you?'. So when you say 'children should be differentiated according to learning style' then it is hardly a leap to assume that you meant the exact same way that it is usually done. The way, which, as I have said before is bollocks.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 09/12/2011 19:28

Yes, the way it is usually done is bollocks, but that doesn't mean the idea itself was bollocks. A recipe is only as good as the cook.

noblegiraffe · 09/12/2011 19:44

I think it is worth remembering that there are different ways of learning things, but not pigeon-holing children.

It is, at least, not bollocks straight out of the packet like Brain Gym was.

OP posts:
LeQueen · 13/12/2011 20:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Swipe left for the next trending thread