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Competitively rank students by results say Gove

480 replies

noblegiraffe · 26/11/2011 14:17

Our esteemed Education Secretary has praised an academy in London which ranks pupils every term by their results in each subject.

Now I'm sure that parents of the kid who comes top will be pleased and proud, but what about the poor kids who are less academically able or who have SEN who are destined to by told term after term that they are rubbish? That their achievements, though they may be the product of hard work and great determination are of less value than a more academically able student who has slacked off and winged a good result on the test? How will that do anything but completely demotivate them and destroy their self-esteem?

What the fuck is he thinking?

If any of you have any respect for Gove as Education Minister, I sincerely hope that this changes your mind.

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claig · 03/12/2011 13:30

I don't believe that pupils who come top put little effort in, unless what they are tested on is too easy.

There are very few geniuses around who don't need to work hard.
Thomas Edison was a real genius, so he should know and he said

"Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration"

ilovemydogandMrObama · 03/12/2011 13:30

Part of the problem with the 'praise the effort and not the achievement' is no one knows if they are actually achieving. DD1 is quite bright, and gets lots and lots of certificates for, 'trying hard' and having a 'good attitude.' She thought she was getting these because she is behind everyone else Hmm

TheFallenMadonna · 03/12/2011 13:38

That would be unusual past KS1 I think. DS knows his levels, and my (secondary) students certainly do. And those levels are reported to parents half termly. Just because you're praising effort, doesn't mean you ignore achievement.

larrygrylls · 03/12/2011 14:15

Math and Noble,

I can tell you from personal experience that, if you have a "knack" for maths, up to age 18 it really is not that hard. The point is that 95% of people don't have a knack for it so exams are tailored to them. I remember walking out of my A level (having not really revised) after one hour of a 3 hour exam and wondering "is that it" (And that was in the day when A levels were actually considered advanced). In a sense, I always enjoyed problem solving and still do crosswords and number puzzles for pleasure but is that really work? I remember most good mathematicians abhorred essays as that always felt like work rather than problem solving, which was fun. Of course, after my first year at uni, I found real maths a lot harder, but that is another story.

I think you have to recognise both ability and effort but it is important not to confuse the two. If someone is not very talented but tries hard, to pretend that they are achieving brilliantly will set them up for disappointment later in life.

ChickenLickn · 03/12/2011 14:49

Its important for people to know how well they are doing - if they are the best or if that particular activity is not one they are suited to.

Like the post on first page, I had a teacher who rearranged seating after tests.. If next to someone much lower in ability, you would either spend the entire time helping them (and the person of lower ability benefits from all the help, but you would not progress) or getting bored and disrupting everyone around you. If you are next to someone of similar ability, you both work hard to keep up with each other, and the teacher can give your group more stretching work when you complete it before the rest of the class.

But I agree Gove is a twit. Spending our taxes on sending out a bunch of bibles? WTF?! Where do the tories find these idiots!? (and wont their villages miss them?)

claig · 03/12/2011 14:52

'Where do the tories find these idiots!?'

Mainly from Oxbridge, I think.

claig · 03/12/2011 14:53

A lot of them seem to study PPE.

mathanxiety · 03/12/2011 15:22

'No, but that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that it is possible to be top of the class in maths without doing more work than the person who came second or even the person who came bottom. In fact, the person who came top could have done less work than those two'

But in the arena where it counts, the person who came first made the minute amount of extra effort and pulled ahead. That in itself deserves some accolade surely. After all, there is no point in putting in all that effort and then not showing up on the day of the test. Should an individual who spends 50% of their free time doing maths but who somehow fails to perform on the test get some sort of praise? Why is there a test in that case?

I think the idea that there is some sort of magic maths gene is really unfortunate. It's akin to the idea that 'all Asians are good at maths'. In other words, a myth. What there actually is is very good maths teachers and very bad ones, and just as in other subjects, responsible adults at home who are willing to focus the children's attention on work when they would rather do just about anything else, including English or History or violin practice.

There seem to be more myths about maths than any other subject. I think that is so because it is seen as the province of an elite who have 'maths brains' who 'get it', an unfortunate by-product of assuming the myths are true (that students can be top of the maths class with very little work) and not praising those who get the good results.

claig · 03/12/2011 15:29

Well said, mathanxiety. Generally agree with you. Except I do think that some children are naturally more gifted at maths and that type of thinking than others. But in th eold days very few pupi;s got 100% in their maths A levels, and anyone who might have done would have had to have worked very hard to get it.

I was good at maths and did a maths degree. I was better at other subjects than I was at maths and I had to compete against other gifted pupils in my maths classes. No one was so outstanding that they could get 100% in maths A level in those days without putting effort in.

noblegiraffe · 03/12/2011 22:52

mathanxiety "What there actually is is very good maths teachers and very bad ones"

No, there really are people who are very good at maths without a good teacher. Look up Ramanujan if you don't believe me. Obviously he was an insanely gifted individual, but it shows that you don't need a good teacher to be instinctively good at maths.

"that students can be top of the maths class with very little work"

But how can it be a myth when both Larry and I have told you that we did exactly that? And if you're suggesting that it's nurture rather than nature, well my sister failed her maths A-level and my brother didn't even take it as he barely scraped his GCSE C - and needed extra tutoring from me to do that!

I'm not saying that you need to be gifted at maths to get an A, or that everyone who gets an A does it effortlessly, but that some people are gifted at maths and can get an A easily.

claig "No one was so outstanding that they could get 100% in maths A level in those days without putting effort in."
I don't think many people get 100% at maths A-level these days either. But we are not talking about getting 100% at maths A-level, we are only talking about getting the top mark in a class.

Out of interest, if you were better at other subjects, why did you choose to study maths?

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claig · 03/12/2011 23:09

Because I like a challenge. Maths was the toughest subject and I can't resist a challenge. Smile I knew that I could learn other subjects by myself, but maths required a disciplined education or I would never have chosen to do it for fun.

And of course it is an immensely satisfying subject because when you master a proof that at first sight seemed impossible, you get an exhilirating feeling.

noblegiraffe · 03/12/2011 23:29

As GH Hardy said to Bertrand Russell 'If I could prove by logic that you would die in five minutes, I should be sorry you were going to die, but my sorrow would be very much mitigated by pleasure in the proof'

Unfortunately, secondary school maths never hits these heady heights, and is sadly preoccupied with mere calculations.

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claig · 03/12/2011 23:40

Smile Great quote. Maths is the language of God, it is the language that the universe speaks and its truths lie waiting to be discovered and when you delve into its proofs you are communing with the divine. It is truly heady stuff.

noblegiraffe · 03/12/2011 23:52

I think GH Hardy would disagree with you on that one Wink

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claig · 03/12/2011 23:56

Well he can't be right about everything Smile

Bertrand Russell didn't believe in God either. But he never solved the puzzle and never found the proof.

noblegiraffe · 04/12/2011 00:16

Two words claig: Kurt Goedel. :)

Anyway, back to competitive ranking. I teach Y8 top set and have decided give them their ranking (top ten only) a week before their test to see if it inspires any competition or noticeably increased efforts. It's a boy-heavy group and boys are supposedly more motivated by competition so it will be interesting to see if the top ten after the next test contains proportionally more boys.

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claig · 04/12/2011 00:22

Great stuff. Let us know what happens and if there is any difference.

claig · 04/12/2011 00:24

Let them know that you will be revising and releasing the ranking after the test as well. That will have them swotting up like crazy. Wink

mathanxiety · 04/12/2011 03:30

I don't think it's nurture rather than nature -- what I believe is that there are are people who believe what they have been told about maths, about themselves in regard to maths and about others in regard to maths. Maths above any other subject has all these myths swirling around it, myths whose main lesson for the majority of children is that an elite 'gets maths' and the rest shouldn't even bother trying. One example of a particularly pernicious myth regarding maths that has been gradually debunked over the last few decades and that continues to be challenged is that girls don't 'get it' and that it is just for boys. But the other myths are just as dangerous.

If every student could be persuaded that effort would result in good grades then a lot more might give it a shot. But a lot of students believe they don't have that magical set of brain cells that they have been told maths requires.

(I also think the idea that boys have somehow a more competitive nature than girls and would respond more than a girl-heavy group to the idea of publicly ranking the top ten is a myth. This is based on my observation of DD1 and the students she graduated from high school with. And there are lots of very bad maths teachers.)

One example of someone who flourished without the benefit of a teacher until three years after most children in the world are exposed to formal teaching of maths (at age 7) doth not an argument make.

The Shirts article linked to earlier and the mention of StarPower are interesting examples of an item taken from its original context and misused in order to achieve the ends of the groups using it both in teacher training and by the poster who linked to the article that explained it.

In the first place, as an exercise in teacher training, StarPower really has no rightful role imo. It is meant to be a tool where a school administration could examine the entire culture of the school and figure out ways to tweak it or throw it out altogether to make the entity a more productive place for all under its roof. It is not meant to be a way to reinforce people's perceptions of the class system per se, but interesting nevertheless that this is a conclusion that someone with a British background would leap at. An American might immediately think of the estrangement and disengagement of African Americans from the education system if confronted with StarPower in the school context. I personally think such an exercise would be very useful in a certain expensive Irish school I hear a lot about, and aspects of Irish culture that are reflected in the way the school is run spring to my mind. Various guilt or otherwise sensitive buttons are pressed by the exercise, depending on context. But it was intended primarily as a tool for administrations and for the powers that be in any given school to examine the power dynamic and the role of the residual culture in that particular setting, whether it is a force for good or for evil, so to speak.

As to the No Child Left Behind comments this legislation attempted to force schools to be accountable to some authority for the fate of the children who are forced to go to them. Catchment areas are rigorously enforced in the US, and the financial facts of life make it well nigh impossible for poorer students to simply move to a better school district if the schools in their own are no good. Students are often trapped in schools that fail to teach them even basic skills. In addition, the US government cannot sponsor or support any religious-run schools, and the poor can't afford to send their children there either. There is a debate about government-issued school vouchers that would enable parents to pay the fees for private, overwhelmingly religious (and in fact mostly Catholic) schools. It is highly unlikely that government will ever be able to tackle the plight of students stuck in terrible schools that way. No Child Left Behind tried to juggle with the only elements of the educational setup that government could try to manipulate, making schools accountable to the communities they serve, and this involved making results public, thus making school comparisons possible. Some (including Shirts) would call it an exercise in making brisks without straw, as no amount of telling schools in inner cities that they are failing will necessarily help them to effect change the problems faced by their students make effective participation in the system very difficult. Whatever NCLB may be, I don't think it should be used as any kind of argument in the context of British education, since in the article the pov of StarPower and what it hopes to achieve are firmly placed in the very specific American context.

claig · 04/12/2011 08:35

'I don't think it should be used as any kind of argument in the context of British education, since in the article the pov of StarPower and what it hopes to achieve are firmly placed in the very specific American context.'

I disagree, I think they are universal, which is why StarPower is used in many different countties. The articles underlying philosophy of the problems of individualism and teh benefits of collectivism apply worldwide and shape societies and government policy worldwide.

claig · 04/12/2011 08:58

But I think you may be right about No Child Left Behind. I don't know enough about it and whether it has any relevance to other countries or not.

claig · 04/12/2011 09:26

'It is not meant to be a way to reinforce people's perceptions of the class system per se, but interesting nevertheless that this is a conclusion that someone with a British background would leap at. An American might immediately think of the estrangement and disengagement of African Americans from the education system if confronted with StarPower in the school context.'

I think the poster that said it explains the class system is correct. It is not about schools, it is about society and power and class structures etc. and is used in sociology and other fields to make people reflect on these issues. It is political. Here is an article about why one might want to play it.

www.sustainer.org/dhm_archive/index.php?display_article=vn151starpowered

noblegiraffe · 04/12/2011 11:31

"what I believe is that there are are people who believe what they have been told about maths, about themselves in regard to maths and about others in regard to maths."

So you don't believe that some people are just better at maths than others? That mathematical ability isn't on a bell curve but that everybody could be the next Euler or Gauss if only they had the right teacher? Do you also believe that everyone could win the Olympic 100m gold or play violin for the London Philharmonic Orchestra if only they had the right training?

"for the majority of children is that an elite 'gets maths' and the rest shouldn't even bother trying"

I've never told any of the kids I teach that they shouldn't bother trying. Some of them come to that conclusion themselves, however, when they find that their prior attainment suggests that they will most likely not get a C at GCSE.

"I also think the idea that boys have somehow a more competitive nature than girls and would respond more than a girl-heavy group to the idea of publicly ranking the top ten is a myth. This is based on my observation of DD1 and the students she graduated from high school with."

And yet there is a lot of research out there which shows that boys generally are more competitive. Whether through nature or through socialisation is up for debate.

"One example of someone who flourished without the benefit of a teacher until three years after most children in the world are exposed to formal teaching of maths (at age 7) doth not an argument make."

I think you're severely downplaying the achievements of Ramanujan here. He was mostly self-taught, lacked formal training, yet came up with mathematical theorems that baffled and astounded the most advanced mathematicians in the world. If you don't believe that mathematical ability can be innate, how do you explain that?

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noblegiraffe · 04/12/2011 11:38

"In the first place, as an exercise in teacher training, StarPower really has no rightful role imo. "

But it has been remarkably accurate in describing the attitudes that I have encountered since my teacher training in dealing with students in setted situations. The pressure on the top group to stay in the top group, the apathy of the bottom group to engage, the negative feelings setting engenders the lower down the sets you go. And even from you the idea that getting good results must mean that they have worked hard and are deserving of praise (and the opposing and damaging idea that getting bad results must mean they haven't worked hard).

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mathanxiety · 04/12/2011 22:39

I'm not saying anything about the achievement of Ramanujan per se. He just isn't an example of any sort of general fact about innate ability vs. good teachers or positive beliefs students hold since he is so extraordinary.

No not everyone is going to be the next Gauss or Einstein; not everyone is going to be the next Shakespeare or Shepard. But a lot of people could be getting much better grades than they are currently getting if they believed that working harder might get them somewhere and that good grades are not reserved for the elite with the innate talent.

The nature vs. nurture thing is something to take seriously when it applies to boys' alleged competitive 'nature' but not when it applies to maths performance? Despite the fact that 'nature' used to be used as an argument against girls doing higher maths?

The students who get the poor results may have worked hard, but they have not worked hard enough or hard enough at the appropriate skills if they don't do well. How is it damaging to students to be told they need to work harder or work smarter or simply do more practice? Do you really assume students are so fragile that they can't absorb that message without falling apart or disengaging even more from the subject? They are encouraged to work hard in other subjects surely, and on the sports field -- why is maths the special case where resilience is assumed to desert them?

I believe the apathy of so many students when it comes to maths is due to the negative self talk that arises from the belief that those getting the good grades are somehow gifted, and that no amount of effort by the 'non-gifted' will ever make a difference. This happens when teachers don't praise the effort of those who get the good grades. It's better to assume the students getting the good results have put a lot of effort in, from the pov of encouraging others to make the effort too. It might be worthwhile assessing how much teacher assessment of maths as a difficult subject contributes to the putting off of so many students. Maths has a reputation for difficulty that precedes it that other subjects do not.

I don't believe that some people are just better at it than others. I believe students absorb dangerous myths about both maths and about themselves; when those myths are challenged and students are encouraged through better teaching methods and positive role models (thinking here of the efforts to get girls into higher maths and the careers that it leads to) things can change.

The same principles can be applied to those boys and girls in the bottom sets who are not getting the good maths results -- if you wanted, you could try a StarPower exercise to see the power of belief in innate ability and dangerous myths about the difficulty of maths vs. good teaching and hard work. If you assume there is not much effort involved for those getting consistently good grades in maths then you are telling the others that they shouldn't even try.

'I've never told any of the kids I teach that they shouldn't bother trying. Some of them come to that conclusion themselves, however, when they find that their prior attainment suggests that they will most likely not get a C at GCSE.' But if you haven't praised the effort of the top students and held them up as examples of the difference that lots of hard work can make and instead allowed the myth of innate ability to go unchallenged, then you have reinforced the idea that there is no point trying. Their prior effort (which bore no fruit because it was insufficient) was probably based on belief that they were not the people destined to do well at maths.