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Education

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Competitively rank students by results say Gove

480 replies

noblegiraffe · 26/11/2011 14:17

Our esteemed Education Secretary has praised an academy in London which ranks pupils every term by their results in each subject.

Now I'm sure that parents of the kid who comes top will be pleased and proud, but what about the poor kids who are less academically able or who have SEN who are destined to by told term after term that they are rubbish? That their achievements, though they may be the product of hard work and great determination are of less value than a more academically able student who has slacked off and winged a good result on the test? How will that do anything but completely demotivate them and destroy their self-esteem?

What the fuck is he thinking?

If any of you have any respect for Gove as Education Minister, I sincerely hope that this changes your mind.

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noblegiraffe · 04/12/2011 22:53

"But if you haven't praised the effort of the top students and held them up as examples of the difference that lots of hard work can make"

You know that kids aren't daft, don't you? If you hold up a top student as an example of the difference that lots of hard work can make and they know, just as well as I know that that kid spends loads of time in lessons pissing around and does his homework on the bus, what then?

"Their prior effort (which bore no fruit because it was insufficient) was probably based on belief that they were not the people destined to do well at maths."

You have never worked with really low ability kids have you?

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cory · 04/12/2011 23:16

I think my able child works much harder because she is pitting herself against absolute standards (the GCSE curriculum) than she would if the reward was to be number 1 in a class of 30- none of whom are going to be important to her later in life. Particularly if she knew she couldn't get to no 1 because there is another girl who is bilingual in French or whatever. As it is, an A* is still worth having- even if the other girl does speak fluent French. Being top of this particular group of randomly thrown-together people doesn't really count as getting "somewhere" as far as she is concerned.

Also, the fact that dd and her friends are not competing against each other means that they help each other to understand difficult concepts. Dd who is often sick gets help to catch up from her friends- would they be equally willing to do that if they thought she might deprive them of the top place?

cory · 04/12/2011 23:18

afraid I was one of those top students who would have been an awful example to the rest of the class- I cannot recollect ever having done any homework before I reached school in the morning on the day when it was due in

my mum did hers on the bus

CecilyP · 05/12/2011 10:27

I don't believe that some people are just better at it than others.

I do. I was that child. Certainly in first year at my small girls grammar school, I was top of the class in maths. I didn't put in any extra work, I just attended class and did the set homework - both of which I enjoyed. There were some phenomenally high-flying girls in my class, whereas I was pretty average, but I was still better than them at maths.

I also take cory's point about 'randomly thrown together people'. We were set for maths from second year and, just by chance, all the really able mathematicians had been in the parallel class in first year, so, while I still enjoyed and was competent at maths, I was no longer top of the class.

Cortina · 05/12/2011 10:31

Mathsanxiety I completely agree.

Maths is arguably the highest status subject and most will believe a child can't be truly intelligent unless they are very good at maths. I was very good at everything else but weak at maths. I was a peculiar anomaly that they didn't know what to do with. I gave up trying with maths. What's the point if ability is largely fixed and yours is below GCSE standard? You may as well spend your time turning your guaranteed A grades into A stars.

IMO most believe that you can't learn to be a good mathematician. In our large state primary they set for maths on KS1 results. My son was deemed to be middle of the road or perhaps a shade above and that's what school has determined his ability and capacity to be. He was only just 7 at the time he entered KS2 and already says that maths is 'challenging'. That's how it is. The top sets stay the same and children can't move up as there isn't space. It doesn't happen much because intellect can't change very much can it? It's only a pushy mother that wants a child moved up. Simply put the child is not clever enough or they would have been quicker with numbers earlier. So to move a child up is to weaken in the face of parental pressure. Of course it's not quite that black and white, a few children move, maybe two a year, but my description is scarily, fairly accurate. The top groups work must faster and have different work set that is more advanced, gaps begin to open up. We have to accept that this group have a permanent, superior intellect. This is something that is widely accepted everywhere I believe.

Cory etc, you are obviously very bright but IMO there's an awful lot of hidden practice that masquerades as obvious talent. There are children I known in reception whose parents make them do endless worksheets for handwriting, kumon etc for maths. The teachers in KS1 are awed and believe for the most part these children are cognitively superior. I won't be making the same mistake again and my second child (tiny now) will receive enough preparation behind the scenes to be viewed as being more rather than less able with numbers when they set at the end of year 2. Of course it's possible that this might not be possible but I refuse to believe IQ is fixed with a ceiling.

There was an interesting webchat with Matthew Syed that I've mentioned before I know. An excerpt that touches on 'innate talent etc:

A minor intellect can definitely become an outstanding student. The evidence is overwhelming. A child with a head start does not necessarily stay ahead. The strongest predictor is not early achievement, but a capacity and mindset for hard work. I think the you can't get out what 'God didn't put in' view is resilient because it seems to be based on our wider views about heredity. We inherit eye colour and hair colour from our parents, why not intelligence, too?

"Environment overwhelms genetic variation due to the transformation that occurs at a neural level with hard work. Our brains are highly transformable."

The reason is that with highly complex traits, environment overwhelms genetic variation due to the transformation that occurs at a neural level with hard work. Our brains, to put it another way, are highly transformable. As for setting and streaming, I have been researching this very question over recent weeks with educationalists. I hope to have an answer soon. And to answer your question on drive and ambition, the strongest approach is to instil the 'growth mindset'. Get kids to understand that hard work is transformative; that their abilities are not fixed in genetic stone; that effort is the means of personal growth.

senua: It is tempting to look at the likes of Tiger Woods, the Williams sisters or the Hungarian chess family and say that they got there by hard work and tenacity, and if they can do if then so can you. However, it is in the nature of things that we only hear about the success stories. Has anyone actually scientifically tested this theory? There must be kids who have had the intensive input and training but didn't become champions: what is your analysis of them? What are your thoughts on the opposite end of the spectrum? An average person may get better with practice, but if someone is already ahead, and can stay ahead without trying too hard, then how do you keep them motivated?

I am thinking principally in terms of education where teaching tends to be aimed at whole-class level and does not have the time or resources to cater for the gifted and talented. How do you teach the academically able child to apply themselves when they don't need to.

Matthew: Thanks - I had exactly the same question when I first came across this evidence. What of those who practised hard and failed? Is there survival bias in the statistical evidence? I am glad to say that I found no evidence of this. With deliberate and purposeful practice, we are all transformed with dramatic implications. All of our brains have this plasticity.

As for students who are already ahead of the pack, it is vital they are pushed. If they stay within their comfort zone, they will not learn. This takes a bit of thought from teachers, but with innovative methods, you can push all kids in a mixed-ability classroom.

CecilyP · 05/12/2011 11:11

Cortina, I am horrified that the sets are fixed for 7 year olds. It is far too young. Apart from anything else, the difference between the oldest and youngest in year is still apparent at that stage. It is possible that the top set is covering topics that lower sets might not have covered, then a child who is moved up might have missed something, but I think it is terribly wrong if they think you are a pushy parent for expressing concerns that your child is in the wrong set.

larrygrylls · 05/12/2011 11:29

Noble,

You speak a lot of sense. You clearly have experience in the field. It is impossible to define how much of ability is nature and how much is nurture. However, what seems clear to me is that you cannot pretend some children are not MUCH smarter than others.

Pretending that the top maths students get there by pure dint of hard work fools neither the bright nor the less bright. In fact, it is an insult to their intelligence. By all means praise hard work but let's not pretend that some are just not born smarter. That does not mean that the less mathematically talented do not have other abilities, nor that they are worth less as human beings. It merely means that they have less maths ability.

Of course, with the dumbing down that has now taken place in maths, most, with work, should be able to get decent grades at GCSE. However, what is being tested there is more method than mathematical thought. And method is easy to learn.

Cortina · 05/12/2011 12:01

Cecily, I think that he's in the right set for now. The thing is he's now decided that he is middle of the road, he'll never be stellar. Maths is a challenge. The truth is his maths profile is spiky, some things he finds easy others currently more difficult. His set is unlikely to change very much for the reasons I mentioned and for the opinions on this thread.

You can see by the replies here that many believe you either have it or you don't.

I think early exposure to maths, logic and numbers is key. I kick myself for not talking more and doing more at an early age. My son is above average at literacy now, I believe largely because I've done more work in this area with him and I love books. This comes out. Those that love numbers usually have children that excel in this area IMO I believe unless there are cognitive impairments. I spent time with a gifted mathematician recently he never shut up about numbers when he was with his young children. Enthusiasm spilled from every pore. Bowling was a great fun opportunity to talk about place value, odd and even numbers etc to children who most would consider too young to benefit. You can imagine how these children will stand out when they reach reception!? Most would argue they had innate superior intellect but I am not so sure, there is no maths genome. This is 'hidden practice' for the children concerned often mistaken for 'innate talent' by many.

I went to a talk on GCSE maths recently. I was struck by how many were nodding along when a teacher mentioned that a low ability boy (when in KS1) was on track for a B grade in GCSE maths. Some of the children were evidently apparently A* material, some B/C borderline etc, etc. The whole cohort were described in a sort of linear fashion like this and the parents completely accepted it. Maths quotient like IQ, all have varying degrees that can't be much changed. I am often told on here that some children make stellar progress between KS1 and KS2 but often that stellar progress means that they are a high level 4 by the end of KS2 etc, it's rare we're talking about those that make level 6 etc. Fine if children reach their potential etc obviously.

All those I know that push/encourage their children in maths (from very young ages) invariably have children who are above average. Are all those parents naturally more intelligent? Many believe Asian children have superior innate ability when it comes to maths. Culturally education is generally valued more highly and this is one reason IMO why statistically they do better.

I think in our education system the child that starts ahead stays ahead although many violently disagree but when our system hinges on projected grades you can see the advantages being ahead early brings. Cognitive bias is rife, it's human nature to label and judge, if you can skew it so people believe your child is naturally bright this has to be to your advantage I think.

I've always believed I am completely hopeless at maths. I wonder what I would have achieved if I'd thought my ability was completely changeable?

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2011 14:33

Well, the game is afoot. Today I saw my boy-heavy Y8 top set, projected the top ten rankings on the board from the last test, with scores, pointed out how close some were to the top and mentioned a couple of names who I thought should be on there when we do our test next week.

Some of the boys (as predicted) were right on the case, promising to improve, come top, beat the girls etc. One lad has placed a bet with another student that he will beat him. The girls were much quieter about it all - although interestingly I did speak to the top placed girl (3rd overall) who I thought had done well last time and she said she was disappointed with her last score and hoped to do better this time, which I wouldn't have known otherwise.

When I said I was going to put the rankings up on the board, there were some who expressed horror - those who had not done very well. I reassured them that it was only the top 10 being published and those not on the board were in the majority therefore they shouldn't take it too badly.

Some have asked for extra revision homework to prepare for the test.

So, we shall see.

Interestingly, I decided to try the same with my Y9 middle set for a comparison. The top ten in this class was mainly girls, and the vocal interest in the league table far less. Some boys who I have identified as under-performing did, however, take an interest in getting onto the league table, but whether this translates into actual work remains to be seen.

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noblegiraffe · 05/12/2011 14:54

"There are children I known in reception whose parents make them do endless worksheets for handwriting, kumon etc for maths."

Having a good grounding in the basics will obviously set you up well for the future. A lot of children who struggle with maths at secondary school are not proficient at their times tables, for example and this affects so much work, from simplifying fractions to prime number decomposition to factorising algebraic expressions. They will find it much harder to perform these tasks than the student who was drilled all through primary and have instant recall. Students who have a good memory are instantly at an advantage here, maths ability or no. Students who were raised by a mathematician are obviously going to be exposed to more maths than one who isn't, and they will have a ready-made tutor available for 1-1 sessions which would give a boost to any child. Nurture obviously has a lot to answer for in children's progress in maths. But not all of it. Like I said, my siblings were not great at maths. I've also taught groups of siblings where they've all been bottom set except one who has been top set or vice versa. Presumably their childhood mathematical input didn't vary so wildly as to account for that.

It is obvious that working harder can improve children's performance. I am not saying that you can't become a good mathematician through hard work. But I don't think that's all becoming an excellent mathematician requires. And some people can do it without nearly as much effort.

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claig · 05/12/2011 14:55

'Some have asked for extra revision homework to prepare for the test.'

Fantastic, they are all into it. The girls have kept quiet but they will be revising and be ready for it. It's all great fun and it will be good to see what the results are. Can't wait for next week! Smile

claig · 05/12/2011 15:16

It's all about "raising your game".
When you have a real match against teh best, then you have to try harder and end up "raising your game" which raises standards.

When you ar in a training match, it means nothing, so why bother going the extra mile?

This is important, this is real, some names are going to be in lights, first prize is in sight. That's why some have asked for "extra revision homework". They just can't get enough.

Cortina · 05/12/2011 15:33

Noblegiraffe, some things to ponder there. It's interesting Matthew Syed and others have argued that although some might start of as more capable in maths some ordinary pupils could overtake them with practice. Alfred Binet performed an experiment where he compared maths prodigies with cashiers at a store in Paris. The cashiers had an average of 14 years experience and were not seen as being gifted in maths. Binet gave both sets 3 and 4 digit multiplication problems and then looked to see who was fastest. In every case the cashiers were quickest. Practice was enough to bring the cashiers up to the speed of the prodigies. Apparently Brain Butterworth a Professor at UCL and a world expert on mathematical expertise has said 'there is no evidence for differences in innate specific capacities for mathematics'. (Maybe the cashiers were using memory rather than actual maths though?)

Apparently practice can change the anatomy of the brain, the example people usually give is about taxi drivers. The bit which governs spatial navigation is much larger than in general non taxi drivers. It didn't start this way it developed on the job. Apparently the same is true for maths prodigies - they don't just usual the conventional neural pathways when calculating but part of the brain used in episodic memory. How much the brain can change and how much faster and cleverer we can become fascinates me.

I don't understand maths really and it doesn't interest me. However much I looked at my maths books, and being quite diligent I tried, I may as well have been looking at Sanskrit. Something didn't work for me, I needed a different approach. Why could I pick up other things quite easily but not maths? Now I think believing it was possible to get it over time would have been a game changer for me. I do believe is possible to get smarter, by a much greater margin than many imagine. I think maths ground work and a resulting confident high could make a child appear particularly talented in maths, a minor intellect could feasibly become a major genius if you like. Rudiger Gamm was widely thought of as a mathematical prodigy. He could find the quotient of two primes to 60 decimal places. He was called a 'human miracle'. Turned out he lived and breathed maths from a very early age, practising for hours each day, he lived for number facts and procedures. He learned to be a good mathematician rather than being born with supernatural powers. Wouldn't Ruiger Gamm be described as a great natural mathematician by most people? We don't see what has brought them to their gift.

That idea of doggedness and curiosity is an interesting one, Einstein said: 'I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent; curiosity, obsession and dogged endurance combined with self-criticism have brought me to my ideas'.

As for siblings, only a small sample but many of my friends have unwittingly invested in one child's education ahead of their sibling. Time and resources poured into one and then impetus lost for the others or just finding that they were too busy. Almost inevitably roles are unwittingly assigned, so you have the 'clever' one the 'pretty' one etc.

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2011 15:43

It is interesting that both the examples of mathematicians you use are fast at calculation. Being fast at calculation is not top of my list of what makes a good mathematician.

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Cortina · 05/12/2011 16:05

Yes, I agree and thought you might say that :)

It's interesting to think that cognitive ability might be alterable etc.

mathanxiety · 05/12/2011 16:21

Noble (and Larry), I have to agree with Cortina's assessment that what is often seen as ability is actually lots of practice and often a home where parents are very focused on one or other aspect of what the child is learning in school. In the best possible cases, the parent is focused on every subject. Very often, children who are placed in low ability groups have been poorly or ineffectively taught by previous teachers, or their learning was not consistently supported at home. (This can be seen in reading too, where a child can emerge at 7 or 8 with a poor grasp of phonics and not enough support at home and flounder when faced with the increasingly complex reading tasks that are placed in front of him from then on). Frequently, by the time a child is placed in a set, even the most interested parent can find it is too late to recast the mould due to class size and scheduling constraints; the battle against the child's own negative beliefs about his ability then kicks in, with the reputation of maths as something only an elite can hope to do well at providing reinforcement to the negativity a parent must grapple with.

I have taught adult literacy. About half the clients I saw had problems with reading that could not be accounted for by hearing problems, dyslexia, chaotic childhoods or other obviously identifiable causes. They had simply been quiet children who had slipped under the radar in the schools they had attended, possibly dismissed as low ability and consigned to the constantly disrupted classes where the low ability children generally end up. Maybe there were other children in their classes who were squeaky wheels and got the most oil, maybe they had personalities that the teachers found unrewarding to work with (teachers are human too), maybe they simply didn't get the support from home that they needed. They were smart enough to fake ability to read and had got on with their lives. Most were parents, most were employed. They were not homeless down-and-outs.

I personally feel that setting of children in elementary school is a terrible crime against children and against effective education. Setting at secondary level is far more sensible and even advisable, salvaging the best possible outcome for the often educationally damaged children who emerge from the primary years.

I am interested in your report that the girls in your mixed class didn't express their enthusiasm for your plans, but not surprised. I have an idea that social conditioning is at the bottom of that and that the girls' muted response might have been predicted just as the boys' louder enthusiasm could be.

I was a student who never once studied for a spelling test, and in my entire school career got only one spelling wrong ('restaurant'). I read constantly, and when I had finished whatever library book I had (several per week), I turned to the dictionary. I spent many happy hours browsing through encyclopedias. Writing essays was a breeze and doing the set reading for exams presented no problem for me. Reading-related subjects were my comfort zone.

Young children are daft enough to believe in Santa Claus, and pretty much anything else they are told about the world and about themselves. They believe what they are told by omission or commission about maths too. The beliefs about themselves they carry through their lives are fully formed by about age 8. They do not have the experience to understand that the kid who does his maths on the bus has probably inhabits a world where maths is embraced rather than feared and has parents who take a great interest in maths and have created a maths-focused environment. They see what is on the surface and they absorb the 'some people just get it' myth that is so prevalent; moreover, they like their own comfort zone, be it sports or Latin or History, and they don't feel up to putting their necks out and giving themselves a proper chance at maths if they already believe that 'good at maths' is not a part of their identity. The dynamic of effort/ reward is complicated, but self-belief plays an important role.

claig · 05/12/2011 16:22

I think some people have more natural talent at maths than others. But I believe that good teaching, effort and hard work means that less naturally talented people can often catch up. So I think that Cortina and mathanxiety are right that effort is the major factor, but I also think that some are more naturally gifted than others.

I also agree that working on a subject like maths eventually changes your mind and helps you think logically. It trains and develops your mind and you get better at it the more you do, just like in music.

I also think that Cortina is right about the quality of "doggedness" that is needed to do maths. You need persistence, you cannot give up at the first hurdle, you have to perservere until you see the next step you have to make. You start with a clean sheet and have to fill in teh blanks. The more practice you get at it, the more dogged you become and the more confident you get and the less failure you expect. Eventually you realise that nothing is as impossible as it at first seems.

This is a very interesting article and argues for the role of effort

On reading Hereditary genius, by his cousin, Francis Galton, Charles Darwin wrote: ´You have made a convert of an opponent in one sense, for I have always maintained that, excepting fools, men did not differ much in intellect, only in zeal and hard work; and I still think [this] is an eminently important difference.' Thomas Edison, too, believed that genius was ninety-nine per cent perspiration and one per cent inspiration and he ´often work[ed] as many as 112 hours a week' (McAuliffe 1995). Isaac Newton, asked how he made his remarkable discoveries, replied: ´I keep the subject constantly before me and wait until the first dawnings open little by little into the full light' (Andrade 1956).

Hardy told of a visit he made to Ramanujan ´when he was lying ill at Putney. I had ridden in taxi-cab No. 1729, and remarked that the number seemed to me rather a dull one, and that I hoped it was not a bad omen. "No," he replied, "it is a very interesting number; it is the smallest number expressible as a sum of two cubes in two different ways"' (Newman 1956). It was said of Ramanujan that every number was his friend and he had plainly thought about and stored away many interesting facts about most of the lower integers. At the age of 10 or 12 he could recite the values of pi and the square root of two to any number of decimal places. Because mathematics was his only interest as a boy, he had failed his scholarship examinations in India. Could it be that Ramanujan's exceptional achievements resulted, not from exceptional endowments but, rather, from the fact that, like Newton, he had kept the one subject of his interest constantly before him since his childhood?

In 1960, at the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences in Palo Alto, Dutch psychologist Adrian de Groot, an expert on the psychology of chess and a chess master himself, simultaneously played and defeated 20 chess duffers like myself. He was not allowed even to see one chess board presided over by two of the Center Fellows who thought themselves to be relatively accomplished players. Well into the game, after they announced the next move they had decided on, de Groot pointed out that their proposed move was impossible; although they had the chess pieces arrayed before them while he had only his mental image to rely on, they got it wrong while he got it right. De Groot himself had played-and been easily beaten-by the future grand master, Bobby Fisher, when Fisher was a boy of twelve. De Groot was careful to point out, however, that even by that early age Fisher had played many thousands of chess games and had derived from this experience a vast armamentarium of chess positions and strategy.

The late Richard Feynman frequently disconcerted physicist colleagues by interrupting their explanations of new findings, to which they had devoted weeks or months of work, and quickly scrawling on a blackboard a more general result of which theirs was just a special case. Was this lightening-like calculation or was Feynman able to draw upon a ´storehouse of previously worked-out-and unpublished-knowledge'? Feynman's biographer, James Gleick, describes a 1960s Caltech seminar at which astrophysicist Willy Fowler proposed that the recently discovered quasars were supermassive stars.

´Feynman immediately rose, astonishingly, to say that such objects would be gravitationally unstable. Furthermore, he said that the instability followed from general relativity. The claim required a calculation of the subtle countervailing effects of stellar forces and relativistic gravity. Fowler thought he was talking through his hat. A colleague later discovered that Feynman had done a hundred pages of work on the problem years before. The Chicago astrophysicist Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar independently produced Feynman's result---it was part of the work for which he won a Nobel Prize twenty years later. Feynman himself never bothered to publish. Someone with a new idea always risked finding, as one colleague said, "that Feynman had signed the guest book and already left."'
(Gleick 1992)

K.A. Ericsson (1990; Ericsson and Charness 1994; see also the chapter by Lehmann and Ericsson in this volume) has shown that remarkable feats of memory can be achieved by apparently unremarkable people after extensive practice. He has also shown, as the above examples attest, that most examples of exceptional performance, including those by people known as geniuses, are preceded by years of intense and single-minded application and practice.

Ericsson and his colleagues have amassed a truly impressive body of evidence in support of their view that it is deliberate and intensive practice-rather than differences in native ability-that separates elite performers from the rest of us. With hundreds of hours of guided practice spaced over weeks or months, ordinary college students can learn to increase their digit span-the number of digits correctly repeated after hearing them read only once at a rate of one per second-by 10 times. There are techniques of calculation with which, after extensive practice, one can accomplish feats of mental arithmetic impossible for the untrained mind. The conditioning and practice of elite athletes changes their muscle strength, aerobic capacity, the speed of their reflexes, the size of their hearts, and even the relative proportions of fast and slow-twitch muscle fibers, and it is these practice-produced effects rather than just native ability that is responsible for extraordinary athletic performance. The celebrated violinist at last night's concert almost certainly practices more intensely and consistently than the members of the orchestra's violin section. Elite performers tend to do less well as they get older but many of them also tend to practice less intensely as they age.

Ericsson believes not only that genius and exceptional performance generally depends upon intensive years of practice but, moreover, that most of us, given the same teachers and similar preparation, could do as well as these elite performers do. Ericsson and Charness (1994, p.744) are willing to acknowledge that genetic differences in temperament and ´preferred activity level' may determine which of us go for the gold but, curiously, they cling to the assumption that individual genetic differences in both physical and mental capacities are not important, perhaps nonexistent. This would require us to believe that most children could acquire perfect pitch and the ability to reproduce compositions after a single hearing if only we listened to music as long and as intently as Blind Tom and Leslie Lemke did, or draw from memory a construction site after a brief glance, as Sack's savant Steven did. We should have to suppose, as Lewontin seems to imply, that almost any of our children could become world-class athletes, given the right training and the appropriate temperament. We must also accept the proposition that little Gauss's ability to correct his father's arithmetic at three and confound his school master at ten resulted, not from extraordinary mental hardware, but from mental software acquired through self-directed practice in an intellectually unstimulating environment.

Those of us who have studied MZ twins reared apart from one another find these assumptions, which are the concept of radical environmentalism in different clothes, incredible. We cannot believe that MZA twins correlate .75 in IQ merely because, in their separate environments, their similarities in temperament led them to indulge in very similar amounts of practice on very similar topics. One set of Bouchard's MZA triplets each were on their high school's wrestling team before they ever knew of each other's existence. I think this was because they shared a configuration of genetic traits, physical and mental, that made them interested in-and good at-this particular sport. More generally, I think that one reason, although not the only reason, that most elite performers engage in the dedicated pursuit of excellence in their specialty is that they are naturally good at it from the start so that their early efforts are rewarded by early success.

I think we must agree with Ericsson, however, that works of genius tend to be the product of minds enriched by years of concentrated effort. Isaac Newton often became so caught up in cerebration that he would forget to eat or sleep. Edwin Land, inventor of the instant Polaroid camera and of a sophisticated computational theory of color vision, sometimes worked at his desk for 36 hours or more, unaware of the passage of time until he felt faint on standing up. Similar stories were told of Edison. It does not follow, however, that these were ordinary minds to begin with.

Edison, Feynman, Land, and Newton all from their boyhood had intense curiosity, an enthusiasm or zeal for discovery and understanding. Each of them was able to take seriously hypotheses that others thought to be implausible (or had not thought about at all). All four possessed a kind of intellectual arrogance that permitted them to essay prodigious tasks, to undertake to solve problems that most of their contemporaries believed to be impossible. And each of them had quite extraordinary powers of concentration. Even Darwin, plagued as he was by physical miseries that would have invalided most men, somehow mustered mental energy enough to pursue the painstaking researches that yielded the thousands of facts with which he built his theory and defended it against so many critics.

cogprints.org/611/1/genius.html

claig · 05/12/2011 16:39

Very few people can unlock the door by themselves. They need the key and the teacher is the key. The teacher shows them how it is done, because the teacher has done it before. The teacher passes over the baton and the child then runs with it.

A good teacher builds the confidence of the child, points to the starting track and sets the child running.

mathanxiety · 05/12/2011 16:42

Unfortunately, when it comes to assigning children to sets in primary school, speed of calculation plays a big part in a lot of schools. Being assigned to a specific set helps form your belief system about yourself. That has a huge impact on your performance.

Very interesting paper on the positive and negative effects of perceptions of intelligence.

A paper on gender-stereotyping and how women's beliefs about their lack of competence, in combination with what society tells them about ability, makes them shy away from computer science studies and careers. This belief conversely attracts men to the area.

claig · 05/12/2011 17:13

I didn't read the whole of that article and it really argues for a genetic component to genius, which I agree with in that some are more naturally gifted than others in certain spheres. And in the case of real geniuses hardly anyone can catch them however much effort they put in. I will never be able to paint as well as Rembrandt in my entire lifetime.

But for us mere mortals, most of us can improve vastly and master lots of things with good teaching and effort.

MillyR · 05/12/2011 17:21

I'm just returning to a point raised earlier in the thread, which talks about how teachers are the professionals who are aware of the latest research and parents should respect that and not think they should challenge what goes on in schools.

I don't think this is comparable to doctors. Doctors, in my experience, are happy for the patient to bring their knowledge of their condition to the consultation. GPs, after all, can't be experts on everything. Consultants are often both treating patients and creating the latest research. People do challenge what goes on in the NHS.

Teachers are generally not academics or researchers. They are readers of academic research. How many research papers does the average teacher read a year? Some parents who really care about an issue will read the research as well.

Generally competent people will listen to a range of opinions, although still taking into account that not all opinions are useful. State education is both about treating teachers as professionals with expertise and part of a democratic system. There should be a balance between respect for teachers' experience and society as a whole having an ongoing discussion about what we want to happen in education.

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2011 18:12

"But I believe that good teaching, effort and hard work means that less naturally talented people can often catch up. "

What is the naturally talented person doing while the less able works hard to catch up? If they are pushing themselves forward just as hard and grasping new concepts more quickly than the less talented, then the tortoise will never catch up with the hare. This is when natural talent becomes something really special.

Incidentally, all this talk of drilling with maths worksheets etc when younger has led me to consider my own childhood. I honestly can't remember any particular pressure to do maths, or extra maths work. Reading was my thing, but always fiction. What first led me to consider doing maths at university was reading Jurassic Park and finding out about Chaos Theory, and by then I already had an A* GCSE under my belt; I wasn't particularly interested in maths before then, just good at it.

OP posts:
claig · 05/12/2011 18:19

Agree with you in general. If the naturally talented person is also working harder then it may not be possible to catch them. But, sometimes hard work unlocks a dormant talent and just as in sport where people develop later, it can be the same in academic subjects too.

But didn't you have any maths whizzes in your class who forced you to put some effort in?

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2011 18:23

Why would having a maths whizz in my class force me to put some effort in?

OP posts:
claig · 05/12/2011 18:29

To come top, or were you top without any effort? Or didn't you care about being top?