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Competitively rank students by results say Gove

480 replies

noblegiraffe · 26/11/2011 14:17

Our esteemed Education Secretary has praised an academy in London which ranks pupils every term by their results in each subject.

Now I'm sure that parents of the kid who comes top will be pleased and proud, but what about the poor kids who are less academically able or who have SEN who are destined to by told term after term that they are rubbish? That their achievements, though they may be the product of hard work and great determination are of less value than a more academically able student who has slacked off and winged a good result on the test? How will that do anything but completely demotivate them and destroy their self-esteem?

What the fuck is he thinking?

If any of you have any respect for Gove as Education Minister, I sincerely hope that this changes your mind.

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Cortina · 02/12/2011 10:18

I took it that this was just Noblegiraffe's view on the wider perceptions of maths etc in the UK not personal opinion.

noblegiraffe · 02/12/2011 10:33

Yes, obviously I think maths is cool. It is the kids I teach who want to be marine biologists, not me!

I think Brian Cox is doing a wonderful job of making physics cool, by the way. Marcus du Sautoy has also been doing some great maths programmes lately and I think he's wonderful but it's still not catching the public imagination in the same way. And sadly, there is not much curriculum time for the really interesting bits of maths.

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larrygrylls · 02/12/2011 10:33

I find Noblegiraffe's views on maths really interesting. I look at the A level papers I did (and further maths and further maths S level) and compare them with the A levels today. You needed to understand several layers of a problem and put them together in the right order. Today, although the problems are superficially the same, the question is split up so as effectively to allow you to superficially apply techniques without having a deep knowledge of how they fit together. That is just not good preparation for further study.

I do wonder how that correlates to the "all shall have prizes" philosophy. Clearly making an "advanced" level exam actually..ummm...advanced is elitist and exclusive.

onceinawhile · 02/12/2011 10:39

My mum tells me that in our native country when she was little, millions of people emigrated from the rural countryside to the cities in search for work (and survival). Most of these families were illiterate yet they knew that education was going to be the future for their children.

My mum recalls going to school with all 5 siblings with no shoes or books. The parents and grandparents could not read or write however they always had loads of homework and managed to complete it fine. Older siblings used to be expected to help younger siblings too.

The parents expected the children to complete their homework but certainly did not do any teaching since they could not read or write. My mum remembers anyway that her mum/grandma were ALWAYS busy working in the house and her father was away earning a living, so was never around.

They were in classes of 40 or even 50 (I have seen the pictures) with one teacher. Discipline was extremely strict and expectations were extremely high.

The vast majority of my mum's friends coming from similar situations managed to get to university and then professional jobs. There was recent research conducted on how that whole generation managed to jump up the social ladder via the education system.

When I went to school in the same country, it was still quite similar. I remember coming home age 6 and doing my own homework. My mum confirms not once did she read or write or do any homework with me. Same with my own siblings and extended family members. We all did extremely well (with various degree of brightness!). We did work very hard though and school was definitely not FUN in any way shape of form! Everyone hated going to school.

I don't believe this is the situation now - I believe for whatever reason the education system is not providing the same service to children. I firmly believe that children with illiterate or very ill educated parents now are at a huge disadvantage.

Cortina · 02/12/2011 10:54

I think people are not hungry enough onceinawhile. The french have an expression for it, dent de la loupe (or something like that) it translates into the 'tooth of the wolf'. It's said you need it to take the academics seriously enough, respect education and have a true work ethic.

The first and the second generation as you describe them were hungry.

I think (sadly) things are about to change significantly in the UK and the next two or three generations to come will have the 'tooth of the wolf' to put it mildly. Desperation & serious poverty for huge swathes will force our whole culture to radically shift. Generations to come will look back at us in horror I fear, for our laziness and wasted opportunities.

posadas · 02/12/2011 11:06

Noble -- I will shock you, I'm sure, to say I agree with much (I think possibly with all!) of what you wrote in your long post about problems with maths education.
Oddly, for someone who rarely participates in on-line discussions, I've been thinking about this thread frequently over the last few days. The question of how to motivate and get "the best" out of children, which I think is at the crux of this topic, is very important.
I don't know whether ranking is "the answer" but, as I've written previously, I do think systems that reward achievement/attainment are reasonable (and, possibly, necessary to help improve overall standards).

However, I do think effort should be rewarded, too and my experience is that good teachers and good schools do find ways to encourage and reward effort. Perhaps one approach would be to recognise both in some sort of ranking ie identify the children who have scored the top X in each subject/class and also identify the top X children who have made the greatest improvement in each subject/class. (Obviously, there might be children who make great efforts but still don't improve, so perhaps there could be a special "hard work" award that might or might not go to someone who has improved and/or attained.)
I'm still concerned you seem to think it's axiomatic that many children who achieve high scores will have done so through talent alone rather than hard work. If that is, in fact, frequently the case, then I think the children are being failed by their schools because they're not being challenged sufficiently. Just like weaker students should be given extra help and should be set work appropriate to their abilities, "bright" children should be set work (and, ideally, given appropriate teaching, too) so that they have to stretch themselves. If children are taught at the appropriate levels, then achievement and effort will be closely correlated in all "sets".

onceinawhile · 02/12/2011 11:16

Yes Cortina, I have recently seen a film about Kenya in the 60s and it was very similar too. I think this is also true for developing countries currently and they will become a very real competition for that very reason you describe.

Let's hope we realise quickly enough to turn it round for ourselves. We need a lot more than ranking though to change things!

Cortina · 02/12/2011 11:25

I fear it's too late onceinawhile. My friends are more concerned with their children's happiness than academic achievement or inculcating self-discipline and real work ethic & are far from alone in this I think.

Things are about to get far more serious. Jobs that some think are menial & beneath them now will be prized reasonably soon I think.

IndigoBell · 02/12/2011 11:34

Schools are certainly more concerned with children's happiness than their academic achievement.

claig · 02/12/2011 12:03

Great post, onceinawhile. Agree with everything you say. This is a great thread. Lots of interesting points to think about.

claig · 02/12/2011 12:06

Agree with posadas. Great post by noblegiraffe, highlighting the weaknesses of the easy scaffolding type questions in maths. Hopefully, the new functional type questions will increase the level of real mathematical knowledge.

DamnDeDoubtance · 02/12/2011 21:30

That star game in the opening post completely explains the class system. Grin

noblegiraffe · 03/12/2011 00:07

The Star Power game is designed to explain the class system!
www.stsintl.com/schools-charities/star_power.html

But I think that the way that my teacher training provider used it to illustrate the feelings engendered by the setting system at school has heavily influenced the way I approach dealing with setting at school, and my reluctance to go overboard with praise for high attainment simply because it is high attainment.

There is a thread on AIBU at the moment about 100% attendance certificates and how it discriminates against children who are ill and rewards those who have done little more than simply turn up for school. Yet I don't see much difference between this and praising kids for being in the top set for being academically able. My top set kids don't as a group work harder than my middle or bottom set kids - there is a spread of effort in each set. Is one set really more deserving of prizes than another?

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Marvellous · 03/12/2011 00:11

Someone at the start of the thread asked how the London-based academy actually deals with these rankings. I'm sorry, I haven't checked the 15 pages of comments, but I expect this is a reference to Burlington Danes Academy in Shepherds Bush. I know the school a little (I don't work there or send a child there though the staff and pupils I've met have all been delightful). They have the rankings up as wall displays in corridors, so they're entirely public to the school at large.

I don't agree with it - I think it would have suited some of the children I was taught alongside, but demoralised more and devastated some.

noblegiraffe · 03/12/2011 00:19

"I'm still concerned you seem to think it's axiomatic that many children who achieve high scores will have done so through talent alone rather than hard work."

posadas, I don't think that is the case in all subjects and I don't think it is true of all or even the majority of student who achieve high scores. But in maths, certainly, there are usually one or two very able students who will get the top scores without discernible effort, simply because they get maths. That probably doesn't happen in other subjects so much, because knowledge has to be acquired as well as techniques mastered. I did maths and physics A-level and got an A in both. In physics, I worked my arse off. I revised for hours and hours, worked my way through big fat textbooks that I bought out of my own money. For maths, I did the work set in lessons and the homework. I flicked through a revision book for form's sake and in the final exam due to marks accrued on previous modules, I only needed 50% to get an A. If someone said to me 'Wow, well done, you got an A in your maths' I'd feel like a fraud because to me it was easy. I'd be much more pleased with praise for the physics result which I worked for.

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noblegiraffe · 03/12/2011 00:44

Anyway, this thread has been very thought provoking. It's test season next week and I'm still not sure how I am going to approach giving out the results. I might rank the top 5 and project it up on the board and see how that goes.

Today I decided to try to use 'maintaining position at top of class' as a motivator. The Y9 girl who got the top mark on the last test was mucking about at the back of the class instead of working. I pointed out that with a test coming up she needed to keep focused if she was to come top this time too. She rolled her eyes and said 'Way to put pressure on me, miss'. So now, by drawing attention to it, if she doesn't, we both know she's a failure. Hmmm.

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mathanxiety · 03/12/2011 03:09

'But in maths, certainly, there are usually one or two very able students who will get the top scores without discernible effort, simply because they get maths.'

That is a big fat heap of hooey.
I don't know why anyone would ever bother teaching maths if this was the case.
Just because effort is not discernible doesn't mean there is no effort.

The people I know who have always got excellent results in maths have spent inordinate hours practicing. The DCs have worked really hard almost to the point of sweating blood for their excellent maths results (by which I mean top scores). I made them put in the hours (for which I expect no certificate). It might look effortless when a student gets 99s or 100s on test after test but it requires intense behind the scenes effort and focus just as much as other subjects do. I praise them for their effort as well as their results because you can't have one without the other. When they were younger I praised effort and also any evidence I saw of the kind of habits developing that would ultimately produce good results, because it doesn't come 'naturally' to 99% of students who get As in maths.

I really believe if you do not praise the effort and the attainment of students who get the good results, what you are telling all the other students (the students who see others getting As, especially in maths) is that no effort of the mediocre-achieving students will ever get them anywhere as As are reserved for the so-called geniuses who 'get it' naturally, without effort. Maybe .0001 of the population can achieve without effort; you should always assume that the rest have put in the hours somewhere along the line and you should encourage all the students getting below A to work really hard (just as the A students do) in order to get the A. You can do this by assuming there has been a massive effort behind the consistent As, praising that effort and pointing out that the result is an A.

CecilyP · 03/12/2011 09:12

In fairness, noble giraffe did say one or two very able students ...without discernible effort. By that, I assume they still attend, and pay attention, in her class and do the set homework, but nothing more beyond that. It's one one or two - though definitely more that .0001 (sic) of the population.

noblegiraffe · 03/12/2011 10:56

mathanxiety,

"That is a big fat heap of hooey."

Are you a maths teacher? It was true for me. Like I said, I found maths easy and compared to my other A-levels put hardly any effort in and still got an A with no problems.

"it doesn't come 'naturally' to 99% of students who get As in maths. "

I agree. But I am talking about the 1% to whom it does come naturally. And with over 200 kids in a year group, that will be, as I said, one or two students. It's usually only one. They can sit and chat with their mates and get all the work right, hand in homework which can be rushed and then when it comes to the test, complete the test in half the time it takes anyone else and get the best mark in the top set.

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claig · 03/12/2011 11:13

I am glad that I agree with mathanxiety on this. We often don't agree, but on this I agree with her.

It's not true that the top pupil doesn't put effort in. Everybody pretends that they didn't revise or do any work etc., but behind teh scenes they did work hard. You don't become a top athlete or top of teh class in maths by doing no training or work. The reason is that in life you are not unique, there are always other people just behind you or ahead of you and they are working hard, so you need to work hard to maintain your position. Maths is one of teh hardst subjects out there, which is why everyone says "I'm no good at maths" etc. and people are described as being a "maths whizz". You may have a good mathematical brain but that doesn't mean it is easy to come top, because lots of other people also have a good mathematical brain.

noblegiraffe, I understand why you believe that praising pupils who have lower attainment but make lost of effort is good, which it is. But you also believe that it is not good to praise teh pupils who get the top attainment, because you believe that it involved no effort. I think that is wrong and is in fact harmful. Can you imagine if no one clapped or cheered teh winner in a 100m race, but only clapped and cheered the person who cam last because they made a lot of effort. What happens in situations like this is that it leads to dumbing down, it discourages the winner from winning because teh winner sees praise going to those who tried but didn't win. This is at the heart of progressive thinking. It is political and it is done for a reason in order to level down and discourage excellence, winning and competition.

I now understand why you think like this. It has been part of your teacher training education. I lloked into the StarPower game that influenced you and which you think is good.

"When I was teacher training, we did an activity called Star Power which has stuck with me throughout my teaching career."

StarPower is a simulation game that aims to teach what is a good society, how power corrupts, how competition leads to power and how to be a good citizen. It is classic progressive thinking. It's a game but it has political objectives. This is an article by its creator. It is called "Creating a New school culture"

www.stsintl.com/schools-charities/articles/creating-a-new-school-culture.html

He doesn't want to modify the old school culture, he wants to create a new school culture. It is implicit that the old system is wrong, that the traditional system was wrong. There'll be no back to basics in teh new system. This is almost revolutionary. But what was wrong with the old system and what does he want to achieve with teh new system?

The old system was traditional, conservative and individualistic. It was teh American system. The new system is progressivem and collectivist, not the traditional American system, but a new system. New Labour would love it.

This is the progressive gobbledegook that he wants

"Creating a school culture in which each staff member, teacher and student feels safe, valued, productive, and creative."

as if this is not already part of the old system.

He wanst to reduce conflict and reduce competition because he thinks that competition can lead to conflict. He spells out what is not good about American culture and what he sees as one of its main flaws is its individualism. He prefers collectivist societies. He thinks that individualism leads to comepetition and conflict and wants a safer collectivist society which is more group-based than individualistic. It is more socialist than capitalist. To get that society competition has to be discouraged because competition leads to individulism and teh individual winners would expect to be clapped, cheered and praised for their attainment. That type of excellence and attiainment is individualistic, not collectivist.

He says
"Group identity can be a force that helps people within the group work more productively, gives them purpose, and helps them feel safe and valued."

"f we want to create conflict in a simulation, one of the easiest ways is to encourage individuals and groups to compete. We often think of competition as simply competition"

"Competition between persons or groups is by far the easiest way to create conflict.

"As a culture, participants in the United States are ready to race. We've got our feet in the starting blocks ready for the starting gun at almost any time. All you have to do as a simulation designer is fire the gun. In fact, you don't even need to fire the gun. Say "bang" and everyone will take off down the track. We love competition. We can't get enough of it. It invigorates us?makes us feel alive. I'm sure they'll find that pheromones are created when we compete. It's the American way.

Competition, like identity, is a two-edged sword. It can motivate people to accomplish physical and mental feats beyond their normal ability; but it can also be destructive?pitting individuals and groups against one another?creating dangerous and unproductive conflict.

There are three ways to mitigate the negative effects of competition. One way is to encourage individuals to compete against themselves, compete against nature or compete against machines. The FIRST program in which students create robots and the robots compete against each other is an outstanding example of the kinds of competition that can create esprit de corps in the school and meet the educational goals of the school as well.

In the No Child Left Behind program, school competes against school; classroom scores against classroom scores and sometimes student against student. This is the kind of competition that creates conflict and bad feelings. It makes it so that almost no one can feel good about what they've done. It encourages the staff members, teachers and students to compare themselves to other staff members, teachers and students.

I think it would be so much better if the competition were changed to person against self. In other words, measure individual progress instead of group progress. Encourage students to compete against his or her self. This would allow and encourage students and teachers to take pride in his or her accomplishments and encourage one to do his or her personal best.

I?m not against all types of person against person competition, when approached thoughtfully, as there are can have beneficial effects. Chess, for example, is the prototypic person against person competition. But Maurice Ashley,teaches chess in a way that helps students learn that losing a game is an opportunity to improve, and not a cause for shame. He uses the chess experience to teach other valuable lessons as well. He?s very careful and aware of what he is teaching with Chess,. So it?s not the person to person competition per se that I believe creates conflict and division even though I believe that more often than not they do not help students feel safe, valued, productive and creative. But I think it would be good if we were thoughtful about the type of competition we?re encouraging. Most of the benefits of competition can be achieved with person against self, nature or machines.

A second way to mitigate the potential negative effects of competition is to avoid focusing on the scarcity of the resource ..."

Why does any of this matter? It matters because it is against individualism and competition and excellence. Individualism is freedom, not groupthink. It matters because this collectivist system is intended to dumb down teh aspirations of teh brightest in order to level them down to the average of teh group. This system doesn't want outliers and excellence because tehy threaten teh group. It is "tall poppy syndrome". The highest must be lowered. Undemocratic, unfree societies love this type of collectivist groupthink because they can cut teh tall poppies down to size and control teh population, which is why Stalin executed many generals who were successful, because these poppies grew too high.

Being against competition and Competitive ranking and not praising the tall poppies is part of progressive dumbing down.

claig · 03/12/2011 11:25

'I pointed out that with a test coming up she needed to keep focused if she was to come top this time too. She rolled her eyes and said 'Way to put pressure on me, miss'. So now, by drawing attention to it, if she doesn't, we both know she's a failure. Hmmm.'

There is nothing wrong with "presure", it is that pressure and competition that will lead that girl to excel and exceed her expectations. It is teh competition from her peers that will force her to stop chatting and mucking about and taking it easy and leaqd her to surpass what she thought was possible. It is pressure and competition that will keep her on her toes. To take part in teh race, the competition, you first have to be on your toes.

both know she's a failure. Hmmm.'
But she is not a failure if she comes second, and the person who beats her deserves praise for doing so. It means she will need to put more effort in next time in order to come first again. It stops her slacking and keeps her on her toes. That's what leads to ghreat achievements.

noblegiraffe · 03/12/2011 11:28

"You don't become a top athlete or top of teh class in maths by doing no training or work."

No, but that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that it is possible to be top of the class in maths without doing more work than the person who came second or even the person who came bottom. In fact, the person who came top could have done less work than those two.

"But you also believe that it is not good to praise teh pupils who get the top attainment, because you believe that it involved no effort."

No! I am reluctant to say that I will blanket praise whoever gets the top mark just because it's the top mark. That top mark could have been earned through hard work and careful revision and in that case be deserving of praise because it represents excellent progress. But it could also be the result of a maths genius phoning it in. If my maths genius gets 97% because they made a careless and stupid mistake, should I say 'Well done, you got the top mark, brilliant work!' or should I say 'What a silly mistake, cost you full marks, make sure you look through your work thoroughly next time, the rest was good though'?

What would you want me to say to that kid?

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claig · 03/12/2011 11:36

Ok, so effectively you think that teh only thing that matters is effort. You undervalue talent.

Rembrandt put less effort into one of his masterpieces than I would put into one of my pathetic, scrawled drawings, so in your system I would deserve more praise than Rembrandt. This is anti human progress, it is progressive, it denies the worth of talent and gifted individuals because they may not have to try as much as I have to, I who could try until the cows come home, but could never ever produce what Rembrandt produced.

'If my maths genius gets 97% because they made a careless and stupid mistake, should I say 'Well done, you got the top mark, brilliant work!' or should I say 'What a silly mistake, cost you full marks, make sure you look through your work thoroughly next time, the rest was good though'?'

You should say very well done for getting 97%, keep up teh excellent work. Take care on teh one you got wrong and next time you'll get 100%. Keep up teh great work.

claig · 03/12/2011 11:44

The top horse is rewarded with a sugar cube. That is only natural, anything else is progressive.

noblegiraffe · 03/12/2011 12:01

"You undervalue talent."

That is entirely possible, because talent is the luck of the draw. Hard work is what makes it valuable. I think it is unfair to suggest that Rembrandt was a slacker, I suspect he put the hours in. And because he put the hours in and had talent, what he produced was amazing. However, artistic talent is a tricky one because what is considered amazing in art is also down to personal taste, whereas maths is far less subjective (while you are still at school, at least, higher level maths is very much a creative art with its own standards of beauty).

This brings me back to the 100% attendance certificate issue. Do you therefore think that the child who has the luck to be healthy deserves a certificate? Does it not matter what they do while they're at school?

"You should say very well done for getting 97%, keep up teh excellent work."

If I gave a student a sheet of simple additions, something they find easy, and they got 97%, would you still say it was excellent work?

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