Competitively rank students by results say Gove

[noblegiraffe]

Our esteemed Education Secretary has praised an academy in London which ranks pupils every term by their results in each subject.

Now I'm sure that parents of the kid who comes top will be pleased and proud, but what about the poor kids who are less academically able or who have SEN who are destined to by told term after term that they are rubbish? That their achievements, though they may be the product of hard work and great determination are of less value than a more academically able student who has slacked off and winged a good result on the test? How will that do anything but completely demotivate them and destroy their self-esteem?

What the fuck is he thinking?

If any of you have any respect for Gove as Education Minister, I sincerely hope that this changes your mind.

Can someone answer me the question I have asked about 3 times in any number of different ways?

Why is it OK to have selective sports' teams, musical ensembles etc etc but not ok to be open about how people are performing academically. Surely teaching people to cope with their performance is better than disguising it.

What are they going to do when they grow up and have to perform in the workplace? No one is going to give them an A for effort when they cannot complete the task assigned to them.

I agree with Claig. I think we totally underestimate the ability of children to deal with life's realities these days.

Do you really think that teh bottom pupils are crap? Is that what you try to hide from them?

Be open, be real. Lose the shame. Children in the bottom sets are not crap.

Noble you seem to assume all the children who don't "achieve" are hard-working boys and girls who make great efforts which should be acclaimed, whle those who do "achieve" are just smart kids who coast along. In a good school, with competent teachers, it is or should be almost impossible for more than, perhaps, a couple of children to consistently achieve high marks without making an effort, just like it would be almost impossible for a tennis player (to use a previous example) to win matches without making an effort. If you had copied all of the link from the Burlington Danes website, you could have revealed to everyone the statements about tracking progress and about encouraging mobility between sets. As children are placed in classes according to ability, they are tested according to ability so the more able are given more challenging tests and, presumably, encouraged to make more effort to stretch themselves and the less able are given opportunities to "excel" at a level appropriate for them. Sounds like a pretty good system for encouraging both effort AND achievment. You might also have revealed that "success" is rewarded across all subjects -- so little Mary who might not be "top" in English but who might be better in Maths or in History or some other class will see her name higher up on the list of those classes in which she's excelling.

I'm sure most of the parents who moan about declining standards on MN or complaing their children aren't progressing as well as they should might be very happy with a school that actually encourages and rewards progress. Mr Gove is absolutely correct to highlight and applaud such a system.

noblegiraffe,

We often get threads on here where children tell their parents that they are "crap at maths".

I think those children can be taught better. But, even if they are really "crap at maths", that doesn't mean they are "crap", which seems to be what you fear.

Not everyone is as academic as everyone else. But that doesn't make them crap. We aren't all Einsteins.

Rather than hiding the truth about rankings, I think it would be better to instill in childen that being bottom of teh class does not mean that they are "crap", as you seem to think is implied by it. Everyone has all sorts of qualities, no one is crap, and being academic is not teh be all and end all.

Lose the shame, lose the stignma, make things open.

"Why is it OK to have selective sports' teams, musical ensembles etc etc but not ok to be open about how people are performing academically. "

Setting is pretty selective on academic results isn't it? And there are academic competitions for which people are selected.

I don't think they rank the people who didn't make the football team on just how far away they were from making the team.

'I don't think they rank the people who didn't make the football team on just how far away they were from making the team.'

there isn't a numerical, quantifiable ranking system for how good you are at sports. It's not like a quantifiable marking scheme for a maths test.

"Do you really think that teh bottom pupils are crap? Is that what you try to hide from them?"

They are the ones who say that they are crap. They are the ones who say 'we're thick, aren't we, miss?' They are the ones who say 'I'm never going to get a C so I might as well not try'.

I am the one who has to tell them over and over that everybody has different skills. I the one telling them that they need to try hard and do as best they can and I am the one mopping up the tears.

Do you think that the other kids when they see the rankings in the corridor would turn to the bottom kid and say 'never mind, you're good at X'.

Noble,

Setting is a good thing. Do you enter your pupils for academic competitions, honestly? If you do, you are the exception, rather than the rule. I take your point about ranking the others. Maybe just rank the top 10 and give the others approximate positions?

What should not be possible (and does happen in many schools) is that parents believe their child is performing brilliantly when in fact they are doing very badly objectively. That is due to being given woolly feedback and not nearly enough quantifiable data.

If what we are doing is so good, why are our schools ranked so poorly in international tables. Are we stupider as a country? Somehow I doubt it.

That's good. You are teaching them a very important lesson in life, you don't learn to ride without falling off a horse, and if at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

Do you really have to "mop up tears" of secondary school students?

'Do you think that the other kids when they see the rankings in the corridor would turn to the bottom kid and say 'never mind, you're good at X'.'

I don't believe that bright kids go round disparaging teh results of kids who don't do well. In fact, bright kids usually try to hide their own achievements in case tehy are accused of being swots.

Yes, we do enter our pupils for academic competitions, and sometimes they win and get applauded in assembly, sometimes make the papers etc. Of course the biggest academic 'competitions' are the external exams, and students who do very well in those are also applauded and sometimes make the papers.

It shouldn't be possible that parents believe that their child is performing brilliantly because NC levels should be communicated to parents 3 times a year (I think). The problem lies with parents not understanding these levels (we certainly see this on MN) and schools should do a better job of communicating average levels and so on for comparison.

claig, yes I have mopped up tears of secondary students for poor results.

And I am surprised that you don't think that where there are bullies, test results wouldn't be used as a stick.

I also have told off students for calling a bright or hard-working kid a 'swot'. Anti-academic culture should also be challenged.

I did say further up the thread that perhaps the top 3 results could be published.

"You might also have revealed that "success" is rewarded across all subjects -- so little Mary who might not be "top" in English but who might be better in Maths or in History or some other class will see her name higher up on the list of those classes in which she's excelling. "

You do know that there are kids who don't excel at anything, don't you? What about them?

Noble -- I somehow missed the fact you're a teacher!! What are your students doing while you're posting during the day?
If teachers don't support an Education Secretary who encourages high standards, who thinks perhaps teachers ought to strive to teach and children ought to strive to learn and parents ought to turn off tv sets so children can learn, etc etc etc -- if TEACHERS don't want our educational system to improve, we're in big trouble. The pension you're taking a day off to "fight" for isn't going to be paid by a generation of people who have been encouraged to think it's just ok to hum along through 12 years of school without meeting certain standards.

Teachers, of all people (together with parents and employers), should be throwing all your support behind an education secretary who, finally, is trying to put in place policies that might encourage some real education....

'Anti-academic culture should also be challenged.'

I agree. That is why I like rankings and recognition and prizes for attainment.
Then instead of viewing bright children as swots, the ethos will change to one of applauding excellence as is done in many countries across the world.

www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000046774&cid=315&story=Kenyan%20student%20tops%20the%20world%20in%20IGCSE%20exams

In many countries the top pupils at primary and secondary schools are listed in teh national newspapers and are awarded prizes by politicians etc. It encourages excellence and demonstrates to everyone teh importance of education. There are not only medals for sports people, but national awards for top pupils which honour academic achievement.

posadas, that is unfair.
It is evident that noblegiraffe is an excellent teacher, and she is not in class every minute of the day, especially as there is a strike on, which I support. We need excellence in education and excellent conditions and rewards for teachers.

We all have different views about what works best, but we all want the best even if we disagree.

"What are your students doing while you're posting during the day? "

Well, I give them a textbook to copy out of, then I sit at my desk, get my phone out and post on Mumsnet all lesson. What do you think?

"should be throwing all your support behind an education secretary who, finally, is trying to put in place policies that might encourage some real education"

I don't think there has been an education minister as out of touch with what teachers want in a long time.

"the top pupils at primary and secondary schools are listed in teh national newspapers"

They are here too. And if they're photogenic and female, they'll get a photo of them jumping in the air holding their results too.

Thanks claig, that is much appreciated.

'They are here too. And if they're photogenic and female, they'll get a photo of them jumping in the air holding their results too.'

Yes, I have seen teh pictures in teh papers. But do they also get prizes with politicians present etc.? I hope so, and I wish we saw formal prize giving like this on our news programmes. The pupils, their teachers and their schools all deserve that type of recognition.

Claig -- I don't know what aspect of what I wrote you think is unfair.
I don't know Noble so have no evidence whether or not she's an excellent teacher. Clearly, she's a good and passionate writer. I was simply very surprised to realise she's a teacher as I would hope teachers would be supportive of high standards in schools.

Noble the Education Secretary's job is (or should be!) to try to devise policies to improve education for the benefit of the country not to try to deliver "what teachers want". If other Secretaries have given teachers "what they want", perhaps that's why we're in the dire state we're in now.

'I don't know what aspect of what I wrote you think is unfair'
the comment about what her pupils are doing while she is posting on mumsnet implies that she is neglecting her pupils and that is unfair.

It is obvious she is a great teacher because she cares deeply about education.

'I was simply very surprised to realise she's a teacher as I would hope teachers would be supportive of high standards in schools.'

Of course she wants high standards in education, she just disagrees with Gove and me and you about how best to achieve that. I am not surprised because most teachers disagree with Gove, but they all want high standards.

'the Education Secretary's job is (or should be!) to try to devise policies to improve education for the benefit of the country'

And frankly, Gove sending a King James Bible to every school is a bit baffling, and is pretty irrelevant to improving education.

Haven't read the whole thread but I'm in favour of ranking pupils by achievement. My ds's school is doing it and the boys are really working much harder than they would otherwise imo. Also teaches them about life after school - when they'll have to compete with everyone else on an international level.

posadas - to make it clear, I am a teacher, but I am part-time. I am paid for 3 days a week but am in school teaching for 5. This means that my hours each day are variable and there are times during the day when I can be at home on Mumsnet without my students suffering. I don't particularly want my posting on Mumsnet during the day to support any suspicion that I am neglecting my students or that teachers are work-shy slackers.

The problem with Gove (and the Tories) is the amount of changes that they are making claiming that it is what teachers and schools want. The power for teachers to search for contraband? I'd rather not, thanks. The power to become an academy outside of LA control? They have banged on about the 'success' of the academy program and how schools have signed up in droves for the 'freedoms' they represent, but the reality is that most schools have been forced into becoming academies through financial considerations and the threat of being left behind. I know my head was dead set against becoming an academy yet a massive cut to our school budget later and here we are.
There are massive problems in schools with poor behaviour but when they talk about Saturday detentions and abolishing the 24 hour notice for after school detentions etc it is a mere sticking plaster over the problem of inclusion of EBD students in mainstream schools with a poor level of support. His view of how teachers should work and the students we teach is so horribly outdated as to be unfunny. I wonder what he thought of the Educating Essex programme that was on TV.

I actually agree with him about endless resitting of modular exams being a problem so it is not a blanket hatred. But he clearly wants everyone in the country to have the exact same educational experience that he had at his private school, without considering that that is not necessarily what's best for everyone.

Claig -- you're being admirably generous in your assumptions.
I, too, "care deeply about education" (as, I'm sure, does everyone on this thread) but caring deeply doesn't necessarily make me a good teacher so I'm not sure why it "obviously" means Noble is a good teacher. Noble might be a fantastically dedicated and effective teacher and I hope so for the sake of her (or his?) students! I remain surprised that a teacher especially someone you term a "great teacher" would be averse to recognising academic excellence.

As for the King James Bible... why is a book that has shaped the English language and Western Civilisation irrelevant to education in the UK? (I do agree there might be other priorities, but am curious to know why you think this one is "irrelevant".)