Competitively rank students by results say Gove

[noblegiraffe]

Our esteemed Education Secretary has praised an academy in London which ranks pupils every term by their results in each subject.

Now I'm sure that parents of the kid who comes top will be pleased and proud, but what about the poor kids who are less academically able or who have SEN who are destined to by told term after term that they are rubbish? That their achievements, though they may be the product of hard work and great determination are of less value than a more academically able student who has slacked off and winged a good result on the test? How will that do anything but completely demotivate them and destroy their self-esteem?

What the fuck is he thinking?

If any of you have any respect for Gove as Education Minister, I sincerely hope that this changes your mind.

Her memory's very poor, which is why she can't learn to read in the first place.

She may learn something - but it's very rare that I see / hear any evidence of it when talking to her.

Her school report more or less said 'DD didn't learn anything this year' for literacy and history and ICT. (And helpfully suggested that I take her to the library over summer )

Her school report said her science and maths was fine. I don't know if she did learn anything in science, she may have. She did make some progress in maths.

I'm not willing to go to tribunal to get a TA who won't be able to teach her to read and write, and who will just be used as a reader / scribe for her - something I don't want her to have.

TAs do a hell of a lot more than be used as a reader/scribe. It's also a shame that you think it's an unhelpful suggestion to take her to the library - repetition of words etc can be helpful for a child who has the learning difficulties your daughter has, and this can be best supported by you at home.

Of course I'm supporting her at home! With no more success than school are having.

The suggestion to take her to the library was in the comments about her not learning any history!

Repetition of words hasn't helped so far. It took her to half way through Y3 to learn to read the 45 reception words. Still waiting for her to learn to spell them.

At this rate by Y6 she'll know a whole 100 words.

Not sure what a TA could do that hasn't already been tried over the last 4 years. She has had extra support since she started school. Endless phonics. Loads of 1:1 both with TAs and with teachers.

The EP certainly didn't recommend anything that could be done that they weren't doing because of a lack of a TA. So I have no idea what in particular a TA would do with her.

School don't think she needs a TA.

Going to tribunal would be extremely stressful, and I'd almost certainly lose.

To be honest, my hunch is if she's that weak, she might well get a statement (if you did actually want one). The SENCo should do the application with support from you and the EP and whoever else is involved. But I think the paperwork is the only way you need to be involved, so it shouldn't be too stressful except to wait to find out the result.

However, if her cognitive abilities are in the 98th percentile I'm surprised she can't retain words?!

She is that weak.

She was turned down for a statement in July. If school were to apply I'd support them - but I'm not going to apply again. I'd rather HE her - and will do so if she does not improve this year.

Her cognitive abilities are in the 98th percentile ( well, I have 2 different reports saying so) - it's her memory that's weak. Which is nothing to do with your cognitive abilities.

Plus she has 'slow processing' and 'word finding' difficulties. But they're all just lumped under the label 'dyslexia'

Until you've worked with a child with severe dyslexia it is unbelievable. And unless you've worked with them since they're young and knew their family well you'd assume there was some other reason why they were so far behind.

Not sure if you're a teacher or not. But if you are a teacher, surely you teach kids on the SEN register who don't make adequate progress, and never have? Surely you fail some kids?

I think apply for a statement again. There is a formula to make applications more successful, just because it is knocked back doesn't mean that she can't actually get one.

Also, 'slow processing' and 'word finding problems' isn't necessarily simply dyslexia.

I work in secondary, and we have some kids who have come into Y7 on NC low level 2. To be honest, whilst they have increasing difficulty accessing the curriculum (obvioulsy it gets harder as the work gets harder), we have had great success with getting all of these students to not only read, but understand what they are saying and some of them have made more progress than expected (moving at least a sublevel, and in some cases a whole level in one year in English, Maths and Science). These students are statemented. For KS4 next year we are currently debating a curriculum that will personally suit the student, hopefully with a pass in E, M and S GCSEs, and some lifeskills courses as well.

These students are just the kind of student it sounds like your daughter is.

I'd put this down to lots of reading and questioning, 1:1 work with TAs, plus encouraging them in the classroom to answer questions etc. Also what has proved really successful is to work to their strengths - allowing them to show what they understand via a poster (for the artistic ones) or other formats (for ones with other strengths, drama etc). It is unfair to ask students to demonstrate what they know only in writing - that way you are simply testing their literacy, not necessarily what they know.

Research shows that one of the big things for children like your daughter is the social development and confidence, and we've seen this at work too, so I'd be disinclined to HE her for that reason.

IndigoBell - the stepdaughter of one of my cousin's did not learn to read and write at school; she left school at 18 (in France) barely being able to take the metro on her own because she couldn't work out which station she was at.

She then, by dint of much begging and pleading on the part of her mother and much kindness on the part of the headmistress, got a job as a sort of TA in a Montessori nursery school, initially helping out with the 2 year olds (the youngest children). She worked there for four years; at the end of her time there, not only had she learned to read and write with the children and some help from the headmistress, she got a qualification as a first-level Montessori assistant.

So please believe there are ways and means out there of getting your DD to read and write. But they probably aren't in a mainstream school setting.

cousins

Indigo is she getting any memory help? It is a comon dyslexia issue after all

Not that I'm aware of. What kind of memory help do you mean?

I wish I had time to read all the posts on this thread. It's a fascinating discussion.
Clearly, effort is important and should be encouraged and children should be taught by parents and schools that effort usually results in improvement in academics, arts, sports, etc etc
However -- do so many of you really believe achievement should not be recognized?!?!? Who do you want to come to fix the leak in your house? the plumber who made a great effort in plumbing school or the plumber who excelled in plumbing school? Who do you want to perform your open-heart surgery? the cardiologist who tried really hard in school or the cardiologist who achieved high marks in medical school? etc etc

Surely, as a society, we want to encourage achievement and we want to encourage our children to strive to achieve and to respect their peers who achieve? (while, of course, also showing respect and consideration for those who might not be able to achieve similarly high "rankings").
As one poster suggested: why is it ok to recognise athletes for success on the playing fields and pop singers for success on the X-Factor (or whatever is the standard for pop singers) but not ok to recognize scholars for success in academic pursuits?

Contrary to what the OP said: Gove is right to push for high standards and to encourage reward to achievement.

Gove isn't talking about rewarding achievement, he is talking about ranking every single pupil in the year based on their results.

That is not about achievement but attainment, and it is also about shaming the lower-attaining students.

Sorry, that should say publicly ranking every single pupil in the year. Posting the rankings in the corridors.

NobleGiraffe: could you supply a link about who does the public, in the corridors type ranking? That's well beyond sending the rankings via a half-termly "grade card" (to parents and students, latter meaning everyone does get to know), which was all I could find about practice in the school Gove was actually citing.

Noble,

What on earth is the difference between achievement and attainment? According to the OED, achievement is the "act of completing or attaining". When I see a rank of the top 10 tennis players, is that by "achievement" or "attainment". If I want to see who has improved the most, I can, but that is something completely different. And, if I want to see how I compare to those guys, I can't because I am just not good enough. It does not mean that I can't enjoy tennis and try hard at it. I really don't understand the fear of being honest with students.

www.burlingtondanes.org/assessment

"Rank orders showing attainment across all subjects are displayed in corridors"

Larry, attainment is the grade you get in the exam, A, B, C etc. Achievement is whether that represents a good grade for you. So you could get a B and be a high attainer but an under-achiever, if you see what I mean.

Noble,

I am really wary of that kind of PC way of viewing the world. When I ran my half marathon in just over 2 hours, I knew that, for an average runner like me, it was pretty good. On the other hand, I was very interested in my position in the race and know damn well that I will never be a great runner. It does not stop me training and enjoying it, though. That is what I don't get. Surely a good teacher can simultaneously encourage the weaker pupils whilst not deceiving them about how they rank relative to everyone else?

The weaker pupils know how they rank relative to everyone else. They certainly don't need a teacher banging on about it as if there is something they could do to suddenly be good at maths, and they certainly don't need it posting in the corridors so that all the other kids know just how crap they are.

I don't have a particular problem with having a private conversation with little Johnny and saying 'Look, you got the worst result in class on this test and you know you can do better than this'. But having an exceptionally weak kid in tears when they get their results back and hiding them from their more able friends because they don't want them to know is not particularly my favourite part of the job. Taking his results and waving them around in front of his friends and saying 'look, he got the worst in the year!' isn't something I want to do as a teacher.

personally i think it's fine to tell parents, always good to know. But don't necessarily tell the children. I have extremely able and clever children who, frankly, know they are at the top and don't need to puffed up with a 'you're the best' sticker. But I also have a son who struggles and he knows he's near the bottom academically. Giving him a number which basically tells him for a fact he's the bottom (and reinforces his sense of failure) is not something i'd be comfortable with. i think education is about getting the best out of each child, not measuring them against each other.

"i think education is about getting the best out of each child, not measuring them against each other."

Why are they mutually contradictory? And why is it acceptable to be measured against everyone else in every other field and at every other stage in life, but not academically at school? So the top footballer can rejoice at being chosen for the team yet the top academic student should get no recognition of his achievement? And, is the "prizes for all" philosophy really the best preparation for life?

There seem to be an awful lot of teachers who defend the "prizes for all" philosophy but very few parents who choose it for their own children, when offered the choice.

I think that put's far to much pressure on all students. The academic ones would stress about getting top marks. The less academic ones would feel humiliated and be stressed because they are unable to compete and wouldn't be able to get top marks. We have always told our DD's to do the best they can. We never awarded them for the grades they got in exams but for the effort they made.

There are ways of recognising the top academic student without also publicly shaming the bottom student.

'They certainly don't need a teacher banging on about it as if there is something they could do to suddenly be good at maths, and they certainly don't need it posting in the corridors so that all the other kids know just how crap they are.'

Don't they still post the results for GCSEs up in the corridor?

Cotton wool mollycoddling of children over fears of open exam results and rankings sends the wrong message to children, as if they should be ashamed to be bottom.

Children are more resilient than that and have been for centuries.

'kids know just how crap they are'

you're not crap if you don't come top, you're not crap if you are bottom.