Diversity in Independent Schools, SE London

[SlimSchadey]

Hello,

I have been going to open days at some SE London private primary schools that are meant to be very good. What I have noticed, above all, is that there seems to be no racial diversity at all -- all the students, teachers, administrators are white with a light smattering of SE Asians, perhaps. Do schools make an effort to enrol a diverse group of students and families? Is anyone else bothered by the idea of a school where essentially all the children are from the same type of background?

'fivecandles, I specifically said 'paying for if you go private'.

I didn't mention bursaries.'

I'm not sure what point this is responding to.

My point is that it is wrong to assume that there is a lack of ethnic diversity in private schools. As I have said where I live there is the private school is the only school that does have such diversity because the other schools are entirely segregated (as a result of faith schools and 'white flight') which has been widely acknowledged as a contributory factor in race riots in the area some years ago.

It is also wrong, wrong, wrong to assume that people opt for private schools so that their children will avoid mixing with 'all sorts'. Again, a main reason for my choice was precisely so that my kids would mix with all sorts and this is exactly what's happened. My dd1's best friends include 2 Muslim girls (the parents of one own a corner shop and the other is a GP), the white child of a single parent hairdresser, the white child of parents who are both lawyers and the black child of a mother who works 2 different jobs, one as a childminder and a father who works in IT. She would not have been able to mix with children from such diverse backgrounds in our nearest school (oversubscribed C of E and entirely white) or our nearest 'community school' (entirely Muslim). I have been incredibly impressed by the way in which the school with 30% ethnic groups and which caters for children from 3-18 and small class sizes creates a real sense of community and genuine integration (rather than parallel groups that you tend to get in the wider community). I love that dd1 has learned more about Islam for example, not from being bused into spend a day at the Mosque (which is the only experience of 'other cultures' that the kids at the C of E school get) but by being invited into the homes of Muslim children.

And I return to the point that the OP is based in a bit of SE London, close to where I live (as do one or two other posters on this thread) and we can assure you that our local state schools are rather different from your neighbourhood one.

What is the point in having different countries and cultures if you just mix them all together and make a mixture? We will end up losing our identity and becoming a mish mash society. Don't get me wrong, i get on well with foreigners, but I would prefer to go to a country to experience it properly. What labour has done is paramount to ethnic cleansing in the UK, nobody had a choice, it is a significant change to our society that is being forced by a minority, there needs to be a clear vote on what way we go. If the vote is for the UK to become the melting pot of the world so be it, I will go along with that, but there has never been a vote, britains identity is being eroded daily.

I lived abroad in Africa for 12 yrs, so I can adapt, I just feel for those in this country who can't get their heads round the speed this country is turning to a foreign land, some cities in the last 10yrs have become unrecognisable e.g. Croydon. We have gang culture being imported, please don't stick your head in the sand about that it is fact, check ou Operation Trident' in London!

I do fear for the future of my children, my culture is being stolen from me and other cultures forced on my children and my family. That is MY feeling, anyone who has a go at me is typical of those that are doing what they are to this country, listen to the public because enough is enough, time to shut the door firmly, our system can't cope!

Where I live alot of the pupils who attend the local private schools are from an ethnic minority and they make up the majority of the school so it may depend on the area.

I think the parents may prefer their children being educated in a single sex school.

Ah yes, the city of Croydon, which had hitherto been a shining beacon of excellence before all those foreigners and Labour spoilt it.

It's offensive and stupid to suggest that broad acceptance of other ethnicities in this country is on a par with 'ethnic cleansing'. Do you even know what that means?

My daughters WILL be going to a single sex school, having seen the state of what is attending our local comprehensive, they will not be setting a foot in there, disgusting animals around, all attributed to the way this country has brought them up, and that is all races and colours, not anything specific, although the white English children seem to have adopted the filthy disgusting gang cultures of some. It makes me sick!

There's only one set of filthy, disgusting attitudes around here that I can see.

I only have anecdotal evidence but my DH recently met with friends from old his school (St Pauls) most were in professions but only one out of the 14 had what would be classified as a top job. In the medical profession the vast majority of medical student I meet come from state schools. I'm unconvinced the cabinet is a good example for a start we have a tory government so they are more likely to be privately educated and secondly I understand that although not as bad as in the US as a general principle you need money to do well in politics. I am very aware of the stats on numbers going to Oxbridge from the independent sector but the four schools mentioned in the Sutton Report have selected their pupils so carefully taking only the top 2 - 3% that this is inevitable particularly when you then combine it with their expertise in preparing their pupils for Oxbridge and their other recourses.

You are right it is a privileged system for those with money and a small % who can't afford it get bursaries but life is full of unfairness. The fact that many cant buy a house in their local community find a dentist or even work is equally unfair. It also unfair that many millions in less developed countries don't even have access to clean drinking water. But we live in a capitalist society and this is what happens. I know you will all find tis difficult to believe but I was brought up in a communist household and have lefty leaning but am equally unconvinced that there was fairness in communist USSR or China or under Tony Blairs so called socialism.
The decision to educate ones children privately is also about priorities when we first started paying for my DC's many said they too could do the same but just didn't want too. I accept that its outside of the reach of the majority but there are a sizeable minority who would rather channel their money into other things pensions large cars, bigger mortgages expensive holiday its all about choices. Most of our friends think we're mad spending all our money on education.
Do you really think that getting rid of independent schools will have that much effect? There are plenty of people in top jobs who haven't been privately educated. Why is so important to you that your children get these so called top jobs? Do you think this will make them happier/better people? In my experience it doesn't. Do you really think this will increase the chances of a child from a council estate in Burnley whose dropped out of education from getting into to Oxbridge? Those children have disengaged with education long before they needed to fill in UCAS forms. They've come from backgrounds of extreme poverty and often experience abuse they have been in families where substance addiction prison etc are common every day problems. And sadly many have parents who are at the very best not interested in them and at worst couldn't care less. I know I work with them. Abolishing independent schools will not have any impact on their lives.
Rather than slagging off independent schools surely we should be using them as a role model for what can be achieved. They are able to take an average child and get him to do better than he would in the state sector; better GCSE results better A level results and get him into a university that he might not have gone too. They don't have magic wands their model must be repeatable in the state sector. Years ago I worked in an A and E department that was the flagship for the rest of the country showing what could be done now I see it being done in district general hospitals. They set a standard it worked patient outcomes were better others then had too follow. It requires money of course but rather than attacking easy targets; independent schools lobby the government we have spent billions on two pointless wars just think what that money could have done for those living in poverty in the UK and for our schools and NHS.

Gang culture has always existed - it is not something brought over with immigrants.

British culture? I don't know what that is. Do you believe all that 'cricket on the village green, old maids cycling to evensong, warm beer' rhetoric?

I'm not saying there aren't issues around immigration - there are, and it's up to everyone to find the most positive way of handling it because immigration is a fact of life it isn't going to stop. Look at the British colonisation of parts of Spain.

And we have a moral duty to take asylum seekers. That is part of what makes us British.

ElaineReece - you are entitled to your views, they were MY views, don"t you dare try and belittle them, I have as much right as anyone to hold a personal view. As for Croydon, it used to be a lovely place, nice shops, nice people, now it is a den of drugs and death, kids stabbed to death every other week, go there and look, it bears absolutely no resemblance to 10 yrs ago. Bromley which was lovely and still is compared to Croyon is now heading the same way, threatening gangs hanging about, no fear of the law, mark my words!

I have travelled the world and although I loved experiencing other cultures and meeting other people, I was always glad to get back 'home', I am just concerned my home is now becoming alien to me.

As part of that mishmash, whose partner is another mishmash and whose childen are presumably a mishmashup, I would suggest you look at a number of histories of non-white people in the UK. Go and look at a few pre-Raphaelite paintings, and then realise that one of the main models for that was partly Indian. Read some Thackeray and/or Virginia Woolf - both partly Indian; or perhaps some Elizabeth Barrett Browning (partly African-Caribbean). And that is just off the top of my head.

And obviously, agree about the duty to take asylum seekers.

There were sufficient numbers of black people in the UK for Elizabeth 1 to suggest - in a particularly charming gesture - deporting them and selling them as slaves to pay off crown debts.

And that's not pointing to the large swathes of the world that were home to quite a lot of people before the British invaded.

Norman, we can only do so much before it affects us all, look at the NHS, overloaded with people abusing the system, schools can't cope, not enough housing or public transport, we are slowly sinking by thinking we can save the world! Why do we take Dr's and nurses from foreign countries and leave their countries short of trained staff, why do people from abroad who train here not go back for at leadt a few years and give something back to their country?

Listen, if the UK wants what is happening fair enough, but my point is nobody has been given the choice!

The cost of fairness is immense, being a translator or printer is a cash cow, who is paying for all that. Turn up at A&E and you get treated, turn up at the same in Nigeria and you are dumped on the ramp at the hospital entrance until you pay, I have been there and seen it! I also witnessed just outside a guy being murdered, they had put tyres round his neck and lit them, the Dr watching with me told me he had raped a young girl and they were dishing out justice, and this s happening now! Look at Libya, listen we are all different, I know where I want to live, unfortunately half the world want the same, we can"t cope, the indiginous people are suffering heavily!

Er...indigenous people throughout the world have suffered pretty damn heavily for centuries, as the result of the British. And in any case the UK is probably one of the worst countries in which to search for an 'indigenous' population - how far back are you going to go?

I just read a bit further up the thread. People are talking about racial diversity in private schools, of course there is a well healed, ambitious group amongst all races.

However, there won't be so much diversity in terms of income and social class. I don't expect to find too many kids there whose parents are on average or below average income, let alone on benefits. As well, I assume all parents of children in private schools value eduation, would they otherwise bother? And the social 'underclass' would be lacking too in private schools. These are assumptions, so please correct me if I am wrong.

I want my DCs to be aware of the diversity that is out there, not necessarily meaning in racial terms.

'we can assure you that our local state schools are rather different from your neighbourhood one.'

Well, obviously people make their choices according to their individual circumstances and areas. That applies equally to state schools where there is just as much chance of inequalities and exclusion only all taxpayers pay for these.

I think it's incredibly complex. My personal feeling is that immigration has been a positive thing for Britain over the centuries. In the 20th century immigrants formed the backbone of the welfare state and certainly in SElondon, this is a settled population - it is 'indigenous.' Although it is entirely possible you share more genes with the black 'immigrant' than the white ' indigenous' old lady on the corner.

I have trouble with medieval religious practices being legitimised in the name of multiculturalism ( allowing parents to stop girls doing sports in case they show an ankle, for example, burka wearing etc) but on the I see immigration as positive.

In terms of crime, again it's complex. And more to do with economic status and British cultural values than race or ethnicity.

Hang on, why is there the same chance of inequalities and exclusion in state schools? D'you mean because people with more money buy houses near particularly sought-after state schools? Yes, that is a problem. But the point about state schools is that they're open to all local children. The point about private schools is that they're open to anyone who has the money and/or can pass the entrance tests.

Actually youve answered point B above, though:

**

'However, there won't be so much diversity in terms of income and social class'

But, if you take bursaries into account, there's more than you might assume. Those in receipt of bursaries will be amongst the poorest and brightest children in the country.

I also strongly believe that ethnic minorities in particular Chinese children will be over-represented in this category (and probably in state grammar schools too).

Private education is social selection, pure and simple.

'Hang on, why is there the same chance of inequalities and exclusion in state schools? D'you mean because people with more money buy houses near particularly sought-after state schools?'

No, althought that's a factor. State schools are funded by all our taxes but can exclude as effectively as any independent schools by faith and by ability (faith schools and grammar schools). Any barrier into a school will disproporitionately affect the worst off.

At least the taxpayer isn't paying for my kids' exclusive education but my taxes are paying for the faith schools and grammar schools down the road from which my kids are excluded.

To me private schools are no better or worse than private hospitals. In my view all hospitals should offer the same quality of care regardless of a patient's ability to pay but since the state allows a system where you can pay for your care individuals should not be made to feel guility for opting for that.

But what if we had state funded hospitals that excluded patients based on their faith or their illness?

What's the difference with schools?

'the point about state schools is that they're open to all local children'

That's absolutely not the case though.