Diversity in Independent Schools, SE London

[SlimSchadey]

Hello,

I have been going to open days at some SE London private primary schools that are meant to be very good. What I have noticed, above all, is that there seems to be no racial diversity at all -- all the students, teachers, administrators are white with a light smattering of SE Asians, perhaps. Do schools make an effort to enrol a diverse group of students and families? Is anyone else bothered by the idea of a school where essentially all the children are from the same type of background?

House!

No! Not House! Nobody's said "beaten up old Volvo" yet!

are we playing bingo then

Surely not driving an 'up to date car' counts as 'beaten up old Volvo'? Near as no matter......

No Alemci, we are having a quiz.

I am a dwelling place, a medical drama starring Hugh Laurie, or a full set of received opinions on private schools..... what am I?

fraid my cars aren't exactly up to date either and my DC are not in private schools.

Elaine you seem very bitter. have you had a bad childhood? seriously

I think you might have missed the point a bit

No, I'm a purist. We also haven't had " rubbing shoulders with all sorts". Or "wrap round care" Oh, or " kids hopping out of the back of a tradesman''s van" come to that!

Haven't read whole thread but OP your second post on this thread about children in care worries me. Why would you want your kids to be exposed to ethinic diversity but not other forms of social diversity? Children in care and adult care leavers face huge amounts of prejudice and discrimination. And, if the state schools near you have high volumes of looked after children, I would hope they are pretty good at managing/ intergrating/ education them appropriately. DEFINITELY NOT a reason to put your child in private school.

okay :)

I don't think the stereotyping that goes on on both sides of this debate is desperately helpful and becomes a way of avoiding the issues really. As a teacher in the state sector who went to a state comp, with a husband who also teaches in the state sector, I hardly fall into the category of loaded private school mummy with irrational fear of ordinary folk.

I have explained my very complicated reasons for choosing private education several times on this thread so I'm not going to go into those again but I do have to say that the gulf between my dcs' experience in countless different ways and the experience of their peers at local state schools (and all the schools dh and I have worked in) is so staggering that I could never speak openly about it to friends. I think that gulf is increasing as well. Far from making me feel smug, it breaks my heart that our society is so divided such that such very different standards and experiences can be possible in the same area.

Surely we make OUR own choices, they might not be what you would do for whatever reason, maybe you have a great school near you or some other reasons but I am more than happy to choose the private sector. It has given my DS's chances that I never had going to a bog standard sec modern with no aspirations for their pupils. I got 5 O'Levels and that was considered a big success. I do wonder sometimes if I had gone to a private school what I would have achieved? I have done OK but I suspect would have achieved more both academically and sports wise.

In South Bucks the grammar's are rife. I think of them as schools for the smug middle classes who tutor their children to pass the 11+(but dont necessarily advertise the fact!) and say they believe in state education. I dont believe that they do tbh - they move to a very desireable area to get a fab school. The actually believe in selective education I think!

Fivecandles, I have read your posts on this thread with interest, because i remember a recent thread about selective education in which you were very eloquent about what you saw the 'ideal' school as being - comprehensive, non-selective (covert or overt), state - and I really appreciate your honesty about the tension between 'idealist principles' and how to act when your ideal is quite simply not available to you...

I am very lucky in that I (unintentionally - as in we bought the house because we liked the house) live probably just within the catchment area for a comprehensive school that matches the 'ideal' I would like for everyone as well as one can realistically hope for in the real world. I can quite understand that if this was not available, I too would be debating which principle to break as it is not possible to act without breaking one IYSWIM.

I suppose I am also lucky in that my local private schools are relatively poor (despite being nationally known, the local private secondaries have results below the main state state secondaries) and the lessons I have seen in them do not make me feel that there is a great gulf between the state education my children are receiving and the private education being delivered in those schools ... it is very easy to stand on principle under those circumstances. Yours is a road I could have travelled but have not had to, but it's always really interesting to have one's thinking challenged by that.

Completely agree with what you say Rocky12.

good point teacher.... I think you do what you can for your DC. Mine go to a brilliant comprehensive out of the area and my ED got in on selection. I am very grateful. I didn't have her coached though.

we couldn't afford to buy a house in the area.

Hi, I hope that I am not going off topic, but I've been reading this thread with interest. We are looking at a private school for my children when we return to the UK. The diversity of the school really is not a priority to me and here's why. At present, my son attends a school where there are 16 different nationalities in his class of 22. He is 6. Within that class, there are only 2 kids that he hangs out with. Depsite my efforts (and I really mean that. I've lived abroad a LONG time and make friends with whoever) many of the other nationalities are not interested in befriending a western child. I have found that it is a "culture" thing, rather than something to do with the way you look. For example, my son has lots of friends, but they are all from a western culture e.g. American, Australian, NZ including kids whose parents emigrated to these places e.g. the kids are British Indian, American born Chinese if you want to put a label on it etc. However, the kids from a different culture e.g. from China, Philippines, Russia, Thailand, India - their parents are generally not interested in hanging out with western kids unless they are very openminded. Even if they are married to a western man, their mums prefer their kids to hang out with their own. A lot of it is down to culture. I may say, hey come over to our place after school, we are going get out the hosepipe and the paddling pool then order pizza. These mums have looked at me in horror at this. Their kids are not encouraged to do things like this based on their culture.

Anyway back to the point. I am not trying to make racist comments here. I think it's great that our kids grow up in a multicultural environment. However, from my own experience, if you have a class full of kids whose parents are from very different cultures to our own, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are all going to get along hunky dory and invite each other over for Xmas. Seriously, how many of you and your kids get to hang out with Russian, Polish, Indian kids after school. I doubt very many of you.

By the way, of course I am talking about CULTURES, I am not talking about ethnic race/ color of skin etc. and FYI I have noticed as the years go by at my sons school that there are a lot more non-white English kids starting to filter into the private system, which is great of course. I'm pretty sure that my child will understand that there are different people in the world and we all need to get along. I grew up in a small town and never saw many people of color until I moved to London and I am pretty openminded. However my priority at the school is what they are going to teach him and how good the school is. If there are Asian/ Indian children there then I would be even more impressed as from what I see their parents encourage them to work really hard at school and get great results and if that rubs off on my kids then great!! However, I am pretty sure they won't be inviting me over at Deepavali.

Hope no ones offended, really not trying to stir the pot.

Very valid points,reading. And I smiled when you made the point that being 'culturist' is not the same as being racist! As in 'appreciation of the existence of others chosen culture'. Many folk do not understand that distinction.

FWIW, a friend of mine sends her DSs so an expensive prep and linked secondary. She has worked hard on the prep's PTA but she made the point that the -and I shall name cultures here- traditional Chinese parents at the school just did not want a part of the extra curricular, social & fundraising side at all. They wanted straight A*s as that was what they felt they were paying their money for. Their DSs don't do after school sport, drama, and certainly don't socialise with the western boys. In fact, the PTA in-charge was 'requested' by the the Head of the school to not send PTA related literature to certain families as they felt they had made it clear they weren't interested...

You can made of that what you will..... but there's your 'diversity'.

But that's not diversity, and neither does it prove that genuine, real diversity is a bad thing.

It tells you about some Chinese parents who sent their children to private school - it doesn't accurately reflect a genuinely culturally, ethnically and socially diverse community.

What a very odd post, ProperLush! It proves nothing except that at that school some Chinese families don't want to be involved in the PTA. To be honest,if I paid mega bucks in school fees, I might think twice before getting too involved in fundraising!

But is is not a criticism of "diversity", it is an observation about some individuals.

No, it's a counterpoint to 'My DCs independent is so completely 'diverse''- whereas in fact your school like many in both sectors, may have DCs from a wide variety of racial and cultural backgrounds, but that doesn't necessarily make it worthier, especially if some of the parents from these other backgrounds and cultures make it perfectly clear they do not want their DCs mixing with yours!

Waaay back near the start of this thread I was rounded on by activate for who started by quoting me: " I actually don't think they have to be surrounded by diversity to appreciate it."

And responding:

"Oh

My

God

and you said that with all sincerity didn't you? Not even an iota of hint of irony in your entire post

Slaps own head and despairs"

...and I still hold my view. I don't 'criticise diversity' but neither do at bow at its altar. Because it isn't always what it seems to be.

The school with the anti-social Chinese parents is not diverse, though. So you can't use it as a reason why diversity is crap, or deceitful, or whatever.

No, diversity is over rated as a school selection criteria for 'right on' parents.

But a group of wealthy Chinese parents at a school do not make the school diverse. If someone was looking for a school with diversity, I wouldn't say 'oh, you should have a look at St Algernon's Preparatory, it's so diverse they have four wealthy Chinese families'!

Properlush - Your friends experience of the Chinese parents are what I experience on a daily basis here. Have you read Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mom? I have it, but not read it yet. I don't really need to read it because I have seen it first hand. To be honest, I deeply respect Chinese parents and the emphasis they put on education. I think they have influenced me greatly and I hope that some of their influence remains with me throughout my kids schooling. Before anyone berates me about their parenting style, I must admit that I think the best parenting style is somewhere between a Tiger Mom and a Western Mum, but that's a whole other topic.

Seriously, when I read some of these posts I think to myself "oh how politically correct of you". I think ProperLush is breaking the mould and daring to be politically incorrect. Shame on her!!!! ;)

My son's school prides itself on it's diversity and it has something like 70+ nationalities attending. Truth is they do not mix and there is some racial tension. This is because usually one culture tries to change something at the school to fit into their culture without respecting the others. With so many nationalities at the school, it should really be a neutral place, not pandering to any one culture in particular. Again, I bring it all back to a clash of cultures. Here's an example. My kids school is a European School. It has very good results and so many other non-european parents want their children to go there. A certain nationality who makes up a good percentage at the school, lobbied the Principal to ban dating in the six form for everyone because they do not allow girls to date in their culture. Things like this breed resentment. By the way my school has filthy rich and people who cannot afford a car and has 70 nationalities and I think I can say that it is pretty diverse in all ways.

Back to the point. No, diversity is not important to me. I am not against it, but if I do not see any diversity, it won't crop up as a Q to the Principle. If the class is full of Chinese kids I will run the other way as my kid will be bottom of the class as they are all really high achievers :)

While I think some interesting points are made about parallel cultures and so on, I find myself agreeing with Elaine that these are not arguments against choosing schools with diversity.

Schools should reflect the diversity of the community of which they are part.

In fact, my dcs DO genuinely mix with with children from various ethnic groups at their (private) school and as I have mentioned they would not get this opportunity at their nearest state schools. I think it's a good thing. There are aspects of their friends' cultures that they and we admire and aspects they don't and I'm glad they're able to make these discoveries and expand their experiences and world views rather than learning about 'other cultures' from text books.

When we lived in London we opted for private because in our catchpenny school 88% could not speak English and two children put of 800 were white. The three other schools close to us had similar statistics and the White kids were Polish, not British.

OP, you may only be looking at colour. Lots of White kids in London cannot speak English and are not British. I also looked round three private schools. One only had black children, and two were 95% Asian. DS was bullied very badly in one of these schools for being White, but one of my closest friends is an Asian mother from that school.