Diversity in Independent Schools, SE London

[SlimSchadey]

Hello,

I have been going to open days at some SE London private primary schools that are meant to be very good. What I have noticed, above all, is that there seems to be no racial diversity at all -- all the students, teachers, administrators are white with a light smattering of SE Asians, perhaps. Do schools make an effort to enrol a diverse group of students and families? Is anyone else bothered by the idea of a school where essentially all the children are from the same type of background?

The scholarships and bursaries at Dulwich College are generally for about £600. But it's very hard to see what is really on offer from their admissions prospectus or website.

As a charity, it should be possible to get a copy of their accounts. I'd love to know that net effect of the cost of bursaries etc against the VAT and other tax breaks they get as a charity.

She's right, Seeker - they do let some children in who are clever but not as rich as the really rich ones. Although as Happygardening says, it's still not open to anyone on a truly average income. So there!

Pretending to be charities is one of the most irritating things private schools do. Although I appreciate that's not really what the OP wanted to talk about!

Do school fees count as a charitable donation? Does that mean you don't pay tax on the proportion of income you devote to this educational charity?

I walk past our local private school Glasgow Academy, and it's very white. DD's school is 5 minutes away and it is incredibly ethnically diverse and I like that.

St Paul's offers 100% bursaries to those on low incomes if you get offered a place you will get financial assistance if you can't afford it. Anyone can apply for a place and different exams are available to those not prepared for CE. seeker and ElaineReese what more do you want from them? Surely this is more charitable than offering your swimming pool to childen from deprived primary schools once a term.

What more do I want from them, than for them to cherry pick a few of the very brightest children from poorer households and remove them from the state system, you mean? Gosh, I don't know!

Actually the swimming pool thing is marginally better, because presumably they don't ban the thick children from the water!

Would like our local private school to allow the state high school to use their facilities.

Actually I would rather they didn't exist at all

Indieskies: all charities accounts are on the charity commissions website.

Provision of education has always been considered a charitable aim. It was only in 2006 that additional requirements were put on some charities (really ought to ave been on all). However, the latest ruling is less prescriptive, and provision of bursaries is neither necessary nor sufficient in itself.

"St Paul's offers 100% bursaries to those on low incomes if you get offered a place you will get financial assistance if you can't afford it"

How many?

Gabid It depends on what you define as learning and excelling. To me learning and excelling encompasses more than academics.

Not all private schools are focused on academics. The first secondary school I went to didn't care about exam results and didn't publish A'Level results but a destination list. The list included art colleges, technical colleges, secretarial/finishing school, dance or drama school as well as universities (the named the course as well as the university/college). Many only did one or two A'Levels and that was in 1998. I was more academic so decided to change at 16 to a more academic school as I wanted to be in that environment. The 1st secondary school I went to now publishes A'Level results and it has changed the ethos of the school. The focus is now on getting into university rather than learning a broader skill set.

"St Paul's offers 100% bursaries to those on low incomes if you get offered a place you will get financial assistance if you can't afford it. Anyone can apply for a place and different exams are available to those not prepared for CE. seeker and ElaineReese what more do you want from them? "

What more would I want? For all private secondary schools which are supposedly 'academically selective' to administer their entrance exams (accessible to everyone, ie containing nothing not contained in the standard national curriculum plus verbal / non-verbal reasoning in a non-coachable form) to ALL children in their local area - and then admit the brightest and sort out the fees later...

Schools can only claim to be genuinely accessible to all those on low incomes if all barriers are removed e.g. exams that can be coached for, exams that require more than the national curriculum, exams that you have to have parents motivated and knowledgeable enough to enter you for, exams that discriminate against those with ESL, expensive uniform, expensive school trips, interviews for parents etc etc etc.

There could then be another 'rank' of private schools that are prepared to take people who can pay - but they would not be allowed to select in any way EXCEPT for ability to pay the fees....

actually, I just want them all to bugger off, really. But if they won't do that, they should at least stop pretending to be charitable in some way. Or diverse

(Oh, obviously there could be other types of school that select on e.g. sporting merit or on musical ability - but again that should be via a selection process applied UNIVERSALLY to all children and therefore not rely on motivated parents, their ability to 'buy' coaching etc... and before you say 'that's not possible', it's EXACTLY how the talent spotting programme for all professional football clubs works: scouts visit schools, local clubs, local playing fields, local U9 league games etc etc and watch players in action, then they are identified and invited for a formal trial. No reason why schools wanting to offer places to excellent sportschildren couldn't do exactly the same rather than relying on applications from the self-selected 'interested and rich'.)

I live in an area where the only school with 'diversity' is ironically, private. The rest are entirely segregated along ethnic lines (as well as by social class) as a result, partly, of faith schools and also because of 'white flight'. The private school has a v. high proportion of 2nd generation immigrants and at about 30% ethnic groups, far more representative of the local population than any of the other schools.

I also believe this school is not atypical and I think it's very common for, in particular, Chinese parents as well as other ethnic groups to scrimp and save and work ridiculous hours in order for their children to have better lives than they did (which means opting for high performing schools and encouraging their children into highly respected, high paying careers like medicine).

My school was like that FiveCandles. My local state schools as a child were 99.9% white, english, christian.

teacherwithtwokids that is what grammar schools do but they can't stop motivated parents tutoring or paying tutors to get their children in. ElaineReese why do want them to "bugger off" i just cant see what harm they are doing you or your children?

haven't read the thread, just nipping in

ds goes to a state school in SE London

there is a VERY big and famous public school next door

the difference between the schools' intake is- or at least was, when ds started- staggering.

I would hazard a guess that, for the parents that stump up the fees, diversity isn't all that high on their wish list

I think the world would be a better place without them

Happygardening, no it is precisely NOT what grammar schools do, at least round here. Round here grammar schools have chosen a 'tutorable' test format AND you have to apply for the test.

The test should be universal, unannounced, administered to everybody in every school and should change every year to prevent tutoring - that way the schools would actually get the brightest kids, not those with the most motivated parents with the deepest pockets for tutoring. In fact, as schools already do the CATs in Year 5, and those are universal, not tutored for and unannounced, using CATs results (or an 'updated for Year 6' CAT) might in fact be better.

Or a straightforward points deduction / removal of place for tutoring (as any other form of unfair advantage)?

Sounds like the Eton test approach (for their yr6 pretest) being recommended as the model for all.

I've already worked that out but in what way will it be better? I personally think the world would be a better place without rubbish like the X factor and the Jeremy Kyle show but I accept that this is only my opinion. It doesn't actually do me or my family any harm particularly as they are not allowed to watch the latter and so ultimately if I were prime minister I would resist the desire to ban it. You seem unable to tell me what harm independent schools are doing you and your family. I can understand you disliking the now abolished assisted places scheme but your taxes are not funding these schools. Surely in a free and democratic society if I choose to channel my all my financial recourses into independent ed that's my problem.

We lived in Kent for over five years where Grammer schools thrive I don't know of a single parent who did not tutor in some way to get their child through the Kent test. You are very naive if you think parents won't tutor their children. The motivated without money buy books and acquire past papers and tutor themselves those with money pay tutors or send their children to private schools for the last few years to get them through it.

Oh, we are not going to agree, so I don't know if it's worth the bother, but I just think that the world would be a better place if children were educated together - even with the obvious point that you'd get middle class schools and less good schools and all the rest of it - and I think that all schools, and all children, would benefit from a universal state system: as opposed to little schools in the countryside drawing rich girls from Scotland and London and everywhere in between, to use one example. I just think it would be better for everyone if they all stayed at home and went to the school near them.

And you will not agree with that, I know, but at least I've answered you .

Seems to me that anti-private-edders tend to have some notion about what they think would be good for everyone, whilst pro-privates tend to be more concerned with My Choice, My Child, My Preference, and What I Want.

And it is different from the X factor example, because there aren't vast swathes of the population who aren't able to watch the X factor and a minority who are allowed to watch the X factor, and some perceived benefit or superiority associated with watching the X factor.

I suppose if there were no independent schools there would be more children trying to get into certain state schools and more competition. You could argue that they free up school places.