religion/evangelising in school - just don't read if you're an evangelist, please

[geekgrrl]

Hello all,

I've posted about this before - ages ago - I don't know what to do really but just need to get it off my chest.
I (mostly) love the community primary school my daughters go to. Dd2 has just started, she's got various SN and the school are getting it completely right with her. Dd1 is in yr2 and extremely happy and doing very well. It's a lovely school all-round.

However, there is a very very strong religious influence, probably from the head, though I am not sure. They have a local methodist preacher, who is extremely evangelical, taking assembly at least once a week. Dd2 always comes home singing hymns - lately it's the Lord's Prayer in musical form .

I stayed away from this year's harvest festival as last year's just made me so cross - the children were made to pray with their hands together and heads down, all the songs they sung were very religious in nature etc.

They pray so many times a day - it makes me so cross. In the morning at assembly, before lunch, and then again at the end of the school day. This is not even a church school FFS!!!!

I have complained to the head and was palmed off with daily worship being a legal requirement.

I don't know what to do, I don't want to start an argument because they really go out of their way with dd2 and do much more with her and for her than the average school would, but this religious business is bugging me so, so much.

I'm actually a school governor, but have only started recently and I don't want to bring my own personal grievances into the role, IYKWIM.

I guess the answer is to put up and shut up. I don't want to remove the dds from assemblies, as it wouldn't be fair on them and besides, there's lots of other stuff going on in assemblies. I draw the line at outings to church services and have withdrawn dd1 from this in the past.

There's no problem with RE, it's taught well and in a very open way that is respectful of diversity.

Ah I see, thank you Enid.

I think there may be different types of parping.. I saw a different definition of it elsewhere.. Parp off then so as not to incur the wrath of Aloha! (But now I am curious about your views!! )

'Yes, I said right from the beginning that it's reasonable to expect no religious teaching (as opposed to teaching about religion) in a non-faith school.'

Yes but I agree with frogs too!

I don't think I would dismiss anyones beliefs I would just rather not have my daughter involved in them... if she wanted to at a later point then so be it.

i agree with frogs and beckybrastraps.

Haven't read the whole thread but just wanted to say that we're Catholic and have had DS baptised. But this is our personal choice. we will bring him up Catholic but he will not attend Catholic school because I want him to be taught about a range of faiths and to experience diversity in a way he wouldn't if he attended church school.

So, our feelings are that religion is a family matter and a community one (church) but not a school one. I would be very disappointed if a community school displayed this sort of behaviour.

When I say "beliefs" I don't mean a belief in a god. I mean beliefs about what is right and what is wrong - however these are come by. Perhaps I should call them principles. And you know you would dismiss other people's principles, or at least say they were wrong - I certainly do.

Bookmad, do you think perhaps it was taken personally because it was clearly meant personally? You specifically addressed it to me. Don't go all faux-naive on me.

And I assume you would be happy if your children believed in, say, the supremacy of the white race? No vague sense of disappointment there, after all, they wouldn't be clones of you then, after all.

And I agree with bk, frogs and beckybrastraps.

aloha!

i demand that you parp yourself

I am so baffled as to why people happily say how dreadful and shocking and wrong it is to tell children there are no gods, when they say they tell their own children that gods exist!

Sorry X-posted! Who is this Bookmad anyway?
Enid you are right....PARP!

But God does exist

BBS - I am confused and I have to go out but what is it you don't agree with?

Yes I do disagree with others beliefs/principles and I will teach my daughter mine. However I hope I will be able to rationally discuss those same disagreed beliefs and principles with her and others.

I don't really know what else to say really. I just don't know what your question/point is.

Not trying to be offensive I really am just confused!

Or so you think sleepyjess.

Right must go, am late! But will check this later!

We all try to pass our own beliefs on to our children. The difference between that and indoctrination is the difference between "I believe that x is wrong and y is right but you can make up your own mind when you are grown up' and 'This is The Truth, no arguments.' Actually indoctrination goes further than that into creating penalties if you don't follow your parent's or teachers or leaders belief systems rigidly.

And it is quite right that society has to have some rules that the majority accept are true eg. sexism and racism are wrong. I'm happy for those beliefs to be taught as a given, because they are necessary for everyone to get on with each other and society to function reasonably fairly. And it is inevitable that there will always be some people who challenge the consensus. That's necessary, as long as they don't cause harm to others. Challenge helps to remind us why we believe what we believe. Once upon a time 'everyone' believed that women were more stupid and less capable than men; it took some bloody-minded people who were prepared to challenge that consensus to change that.

Aloha, I think you might be surprised by what actually goes on in families that practise religion, cos I certainly don't recognise myself or any other families I know in your posts.

The children see how we live and what we do, they go to church with us, and say their prayers at night. That's pretty much it, in terms of indoctrination. Occasionally they will ask a specific question about some aspect of religion, and I will explain what we believe. They know that other people believe different things, but so far they haven't taken that thought any further. It really is terribly unexciting in reality -- your posts make me feel as if I should be forcing my children to their knees morning, noon and night, praying the rosary with them daily and threatening them with hellfire for the merest whiff of thoughtcrime.

But in the real world, I deal with religious questions in exactly the same way that I deal with potentially controversial questions about sex, stealing or why Billy is allowed lollipops and my ds isn't: this is what we believe, this is how we behave, and this is why. I can assure you that my children are perfectly capable of thinking for themselves, as I and their teachers know to our cost.

Good post Frogs

geekgrrl - I was in the situation you describe as a child. My dad is atheist and pretty vocal about it, my mum agnostic really, would put c of e on a form. The school I went to was c of e in a vilaage with a very strong (happy clappy) church. I've a;lways been a bit of a joiner so went to Sunday school, parish camp etc (with my friend and her family generally). For a while I was quite religious (in the church music group- which was very full on- lots of laying on of hands, and hours of prayer). My dad never said very much directly, carried on with his usual stuff that he says about the beginnings of christianity (repressed people, couldn't be jews, along comes Jesus says join with me you can be saved, etc ), but never directed it at me as such,

Anyway now at 34 I'm an atheist and have been from about the age of 18. What I have found though is that the early exposure to evangelical christianity has made me not fear it. In fact I love the church I used to go to (beautiful building, and it is in my mind a special place) although I don't hold a single religious belief. I'm not really worried about my children being exposed to it because I think an early ex[posure makes it less "wow" in the future,

Recently I took ds2 and ds3 to church (ds2 is 3, ds3 a baby). We went to a church that is being set up by my friend. It is very evalgelical. Ds2 absolutely loved it ("oh mummy I do hope we can go to church again'- I will take him). And it was interesting to be around all the guitar playing and praising again (felt very familiar). I think the service was very powerful, but I also noticed that because it was part of my childhood - it wasn't remotely persuasive. I have a severely disabled child and my friend was talking about the power of prayer. It struck me that if that had been new to me I would have probably been quite easily sucked into it, because the music is powerful, and because the people are passionate. As it was I said I was quite happy for her to pray for ds1 (but I won't be doing it myself). I'm sure that havgin seen it as a child, and then having rejected it sometime in my teens has been a benefit in being impervious. It was my decision based on experience, not my parents iyswim.

If ds2 or ds3 became raging christians I wouldn't worry too much. The church my friend is involved in does a lot, and the people aren't hypocrites. There are worse things they could become involved in!

Edam, good points - I'm really playing devil's advocate here and stretching my point quite a bit. I like a bit of debate! I think your point about not causing harm to others is key to my own set of beliefs/principles. I do however think your distinction between "passing on beliefs" and indoctrination is too clear cut. On the subjects of racism or homophobia I would be more at the indoctrination end of the scale. I do not intend to say that they can make their own minds up about it when they are grown up. Of course they will, but I'm not going to make it sound like a valid choice. And I would impose penalties for going against my beliefs as well. With my devil's advocate hat on again, I would also add that a "fair" society is also a value judgement.

Fair points, becky, I was using racism/sexism as examples of things on which most people are agreed. But I do believe that accepted wisdom must be challenged - I'd personally like to exempt the immorality of racism/sexism from this because I believe very strongly that both are wrong, but I can't hold that challenging accepting wisdom is OK except-for-anyone-who-disagrees-with-me IYSWIM (well, I can, obviously, but it would contradict my own beliefs... gosh, this is complicated).

Am basically a believer in the rational, scientific values of the European Enlightenment and developments since, so I have to allow people to challenge my beliefs. A fundamental part of that belief system is that all ideas are up for debate and those which survive the cut and thrust of argument are right. Although obviously is a bit more complicated than that because some people are better equipped to argue than others, but that's the starting point for me.

It really is easy to tie yourself up in knots over this isn't it?! I try so hard to be rational, but find it almost impossible to step back from my most strongly held beliefs. I know they are culturally influenced, yet have little time for cultural relativism. I am a mass of contradictions! I've enjoyed this debate though!

Aloha, sorry to take so long in answering your question, I was at work and they do insisit on me doing some!

And all I can say now is that I don't have an answer! I have a faith in God and a strong love for Jesus, and although I can spout the bible at you, and quote 'learned' people, the reason that I usually stay off threads like this is that far more eloquent posters than me can make me feel inadequate in my ability to carry an argument thru.

I do not beleive that children go to hell, I beleive in a loving and forgiving God who looks after us, his children. Some of my faith is built on facts but most of it is just that, it is a faith, I beleive it to be true with all my heart. I know from reading your posts on religion in the past your views on God and Christianity and how well you can put your points across and so I don't want to enter into a debate with you as I would probably tie myself up in knots.

I hope that you can accept my beleifs and faith without feeling the need to challenge them in an atagonistic way.

Sorry that sounds a bit stuffy - did't mean it to!

With regard to a belief, I don't think there is a middle ground. afaics, for Christians, the whole point is 'faith' - the belief in God whether god's existence could be proved or not. Faith is the point, proof is not. This is wholly irreconcilable with a pov which is 'I have no reason at all to believe in God, no actual evidence has passed my way, and at most I might keep an open mind until any such evidence or proof is rvealed to me'.

It is an absolute difference in thought.

But I am genuinely interested in the philosophical dimension that faith gives to 'thinking Christians', and what they have to say.