religion/evangelising in school - just don't read if you're an evangelist, please

[geekgrrl]

Hello all,

I've posted about this before - ages ago - I don't know what to do really but just need to get it off my chest.
I (mostly) love the community primary school my daughters go to. Dd2 has just started, she's got various SN and the school are getting it completely right with her. Dd1 is in yr2 and extremely happy and doing very well. It's a lovely school all-round.

However, there is a very very strong religious influence, probably from the head, though I am not sure. They have a local methodist preacher, who is extremely evangelical, taking assembly at least once a week. Dd2 always comes home singing hymns - lately it's the Lord's Prayer in musical form .

I stayed away from this year's harvest festival as last year's just made me so cross - the children were made to pray with their hands together and heads down, all the songs they sung were very religious in nature etc.

They pray so many times a day - it makes me so cross. In the morning at assembly, before lunch, and then again at the end of the school day. This is not even a church school FFS!!!!

I have complained to the head and was palmed off with daily worship being a legal requirement.

I don't know what to do, I don't want to start an argument because they really go out of their way with dd2 and do much more with her and for her than the average school would, but this religious business is bugging me so, so much.

I'm actually a school governor, but have only started recently and I don't want to bring my own personal grievances into the role, IYKWIM.

I guess the answer is to put up and shut up. I don't want to remove the dds from assemblies, as it wouldn't be fair on them and besides, there's lots of other stuff going on in assemblies. I draw the line at outings to church services and have withdrawn dd1 from this in the past.

There's no problem with RE, it's taught well and in a very open way that is respectful of diversity.

(as an aside, it's very refreshing to have this disussion without being sarcastic and abusive as I have seen these discssinos become in the past...]

(Hope I didn't speak too soon.. )

sleepyjess, any studies you could find on the power of prayer would be flawed and probably commissioned by some dodgy church - how do you imagine this works? Does your god sit up there with a clip board and gives the sick people ticks for each prayer received? Whoever has the most ticks gets to live?

I most certainly would be disappointed if my children believed in that sort of thing.

I think I better PARP myself.

Are they just saying grace before lunch? Assembly plus grace wouldn't worry me although praying before home time sounds a bit much. Although I went to Church schools so a bit less worried about this than you would be, especially as in your case it isn't a Church school.

qeekgrrl really I don't think you need to worry. My children were exposed for a time to an evangelical preacher and it has totally put them off any religion. In the same way I hope aloha's children will be totally put off atheism. Children should be taught to think for themselves so they recognise fanatics wherever they find them

Perhaps it's not alright to say there are no such things as ghosts.. because how can you be sure you are in a position to say this is categorically The Truth?

Well, yes, GG. I think that is how prayer power must work! And therefore God must discriminate against people who don't have anyone to pray for them,which doesn't seem awfully nice, to be honest.
And I have never yet had a good answer to my question as to how Heaven can be a nice place to be if the people you loved in life (eg your children, your parents) are in hell, suffering eternal torment. If I were in 'Heaven' and my children were in Hell, then my Heaven would be a Hell.

but that goes for everything, SJ - when I say that there are no sharks in the river, I cannot categorically rule out the presence of a shark - someone could have released one a few miles upstream, in the same way that I cannot rule out the presence of a lion in the garden. But do I tell my children that there might be lions and sharks outside our house? NO.

I am not absolutely certain there are no monsters in ds's room the minute I walk out, but I still feel pretty safe in reassuring him that there aren't.
Thanks Bookmad. I hope your children are a disappointment to you too.

Yes or the Loch Ness monster even...

Sleepyjess, I think the problem is, though, that when children are taught to pray, bleieve in god etc at school, that is not enabling them to have an open mind, either. they are being taught to believe in God.

DS's nursery teacher told them that God actually needs prayers, so they must remember to pray. (DS made me say grace in our local fish and chip cafe the other week!!). She told them that the rason for a particular sunless stretch of the summer was because God wasn't happy with us. At my non-church school we were regularly told that when we were naughty 'god would see'. Very powerful stuff in a child's mind, and hardly conducive to genuine open-mindedness, either.

I don't actually get too worked up about DS experiencing it - it won't take him long to realise that all his muslim, hindu, christian and athiest relatives can't all be right, so he will have to make up his own mind!

Yes that was a charming comment for bookmad. Nice.

Um, she got there first.

Sorry, from bookmad.

Sorry! Aloha! Worded wrongly, am with you!

Hmmm, how many exclaimation marks can I use it one post?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, I hope Bookmad's kids turn out beautifully. I wouldn't ever wish ill on children. I was just cross at the personal comment.

Geerkgirl.. don't PARP yourself!! I am interested in your views..

I categorically do not believe that God sits up there with a clipboard.. I don't not beleive in that kind of God at all. I don't think He judges us.. I don't think He has all these 'requirements' of us that organised religions insists that He DOES have! Why would he?? They have been made up by various groups of various humans throughout various eras of history.. don't eat meat... don't eat pork.. attend Sunday services... Go to confession... get your child baptised... all these different ideas that contradict each other in many cases. HOW can God 'require' all that of us? WHY would he 'require' any of it? Answer: He does not.

Knowing God (in my opinion) is about knowing who and what YOU are in the order of all things.. in the Universe - or at at least having some idea about what we are all doing here.. and how we are all connected to each other and to God. When you start to know God in this way, you suddenly start to see all the similarities and aspects in common of all the different religions.. the common good in all (or most) or them.. and how they are all (or most!) barking ever so slightly up the wrong tree.. missing the point if you like. If God requires anything at all it's that we simply BE... be true to ourselves.. be all that we can be in the best way we can be.. obviously making all our mistakes that we have to make in order to learn.. but staying on a path that most of us, if we listen to ourselves, know we should be on, even if we often lose our way.

You probably won't want to (not that I am assuming anything here).. but I pretty sure you would find this book interesting.. but only if you make a pact with yourself to approach it with an open mind. Although it is probably better to approach with the way of thinking you have already described than with devout Christian beliefs. I always read the reviews with interest (they change from time to time) becasue the people that shriek about it being 'sinister!' 'damaging!' 'heresy!' etc are those that just cannot put aside the image of a God who sits on a throne in judegement of us all..

My own personal view on prayer (which changes constantly) is that it is largely for the benefit of the person praying. Where I think 'prayer power' really exists is when after saying a prayer you can feel comforted - not in a 'I've done my bit now' way, but an 'I'm not alone' way. And I certainly don't think there is a big clipboard with ticks for some people, otherwise presumably the Pope would live forever.

I do think religion is different to believing in ghosts etc (and I've said this before, but how many people objecting to children being 'indoctrinated', 'brainwashed' etc tell their children that Santa Claus will bring their presents down the chimney having arrived on a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer......?) - Jesus DID exist, it is historically proven, so there is more substance than with ghosts/ghouls/loch ness monsters/Santa Claus (and I know St Nicholas existed, but he really didn't come down chimneys and have flying reindeer).

I think where people get into problems is when they expect 'supernatural' responses to prayer. I have witnessed 'miracles' but they're not 'magical' - a non-Christian would call them coincidences - too boring to go into examples, but looking at things with a different slant can give you different ideas about why they happen.

Sorry this is long, boring and off topic!

Does prayer work? - It was "tested" recently by BBC. It doesn't.

I'm with those who hate the foisting of belief in god on children in non-religious schools. I think it's wrong. Find it's quite difficult and confusing for my daughter for me to tell her that I don't believe what she is told at school. However, like Edam, can relax a little about this since I attended a Catholic school and no longer believe.

I honestly and absolutely don't want to contradict ds's school and I hope I never have to.

Blu.. I see what you are saying.. but I think the combination of whatever they learn at school (within reason obviously!) and what we, as parents, can teach them at home about how to process and balance that information, it what is a healthy approach to teaching children about religion. This can be done from an early age. I am not saying, say.. 'DS! You know that stuff you teacher said.. well it's a right load of codswallop..' (no offence Cod ).. but you can say 'your teacher believes that we need to pray because.....(whatever).. whereas, I believe that we don't.. because..' It's not the same as 'arguing' with the teacher - you are not going to be contradicting their methods of teaching algebra, presumably - rather it's a way of making your child understand that religious belief.. or lack of it.. is more abstract than other stuff they will learn at school.. and more about deciding for yourself at some point.

geekgirl, could you have a quiet word with the head?

This does sound too much for a non-church school.

Dd and ds are at a non-church state primary and every now and then come back spouting some sort of religious song or prayer. But then I figured out it was part of their religious education bit and they were covering a different religion each time (and it only seemed to be once a week on Friday).

Perhaps you could open discussion by suggesting that other religions need to be covered as well and then suggest it's just once a day (in assembly or something). I would also try and find some other parents who feel the same way as you do.

Sleepyjess - i find all the things you refer to in the middle para of your last post absolutely essential in beinhg a human being - and my understanding of that was hugely enhanced and inspired by the very wonderful science / astronomy museum in New York - an evocative scientific journey through time from as far back as we know anything about. I was overwjelemed to hear that every atom in me has an relationship to the first stars, etc. (Fabulous voice over by John Hurt and others!).

And religion in schools isn't done in the philosophical way you describe it.

I would love there to be philosophical discussions. They are what 3/4/5 year olds excel at IMO. Like ds asking me 'what is the biggest number mummy?' 'Where does the world end?'

No it isn't Blu.. I agree, and if I had anything to do with it, then it would be.. but I think many more people would then have a problem with that than they do about Christianity per se..

I actually feel, upon balance, that the Christian teaching is maybe a good starting point and does not outright contradict the 'philosophical way'.. it is just not expanisive enough.. or include enough people! (eg.. the only way to God is through Jesus..) A child can be brought up to be mindful of this.. (teachers are not the only ones with influence!)..and be taught to view things from a spiritual point of view from quite early on.