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Original poster

religion/evangelising in school - just don't read if you're an evangelist, please

158 replies

geekgrrl · 04/11/2005 09:16

Hello all,

I've posted about this before - ages ago - I don't know what to do really but just need to get it off my chest.
I (mostly) love the community primary school my daughters go to. Dd2 has just started, she's got various SN and the school are getting it completely right with her. Dd1 is in yr2 and extremely happy and doing very well. It's a lovely school all-round.

However, there is a very very strong religious influence, probably from the head, though I am not sure. They have a local methodist preacher, who is extremely evangelical, taking assembly at least once a week. Dd2 always comes home singing hymns - lately it's the Lord's Prayer in musical form .

I stayed away from this year's harvest festival as last year's just made me so cross - the children were made to pray with their hands together and heads down, all the songs they sung were very religious in nature etc.

They pray so many times a day - it makes me so cross. In the morning at assembly, before lunch, and then again at the end of the school day. This is not even a church school FFS!!!!

I have complained to the head and was palmed off with daily worship being a legal requirement.

I don't know what to do, I don't want to start an argument because they really go out of their way with dd2 and do much more with her and for her than the average school would, but this religious business is bugging me so, so much.

I'm actually a school governor, but have only started recently and I don't want to bring my own personal grievances into the role, IYKWIM.

I guess the answer is to put up and shut up. I don't want to remove the dds from assemblies, as it wouldn't be fair on them and besides, there's lots of other stuff going on in assemblies. I draw the line at outings to church services and have withdrawn dd1 from this in the past.

There's no problem with RE, it's taught well and in a very open way that is respectful of diversity.

OP posts:
SleepyJess · 04/11/2005 12:42

And I would love to go to that museum.. Hell I love to go to New York!!!

aloha · 04/11/2005 12:42

Why 'spiritual'? What do you mean by 'spiritual'?

beckybrastraps · 04/11/2005 12:44

I think I'm probably going completely off the point here, but it's something I've been thinking about a lot. We ALL indoctrinate our children, of course we do. We all have beliefs and principles, however acquired, and we do our very best to instill them in our children, and by definition, we think we are right and anybody who disagrees is wrong. We might think that ours are rational and universal, but there WILL be others who disagree. Aloha says she would hate it her children grew up to be racist, and she thinks most people would agree. Most people here maybe, but sadly not everywhere. It is NOT a universal thing - she might think that way, and I might think that way, but there are many people who would be disappointed if their children grew up NOT being racist. They would think THEY had failed. I have seen posts on MN about how homosexuality is "unnatural" and wrong. I disagree. I will try my best to indoctrinate my children to think how I think, and I know others will do the opposite. I suspect we call it education and imparting healthy values when we agree with what is taught, and indoctination when we don't. We all do it. We can't not.

lilibet · 04/11/2005 12:45

I know the thread title said it wasn't for evangelists, but that was for me a real temptation to read it

I have only skimmed the thread, and am speaking as a Christian Evangelist but do wnat to put forward my point of view. I feel that if a parent chooses to send a child to a non church school then there should be no practising of any religion. Equal weight should be given to teaching about the various religions and denominations, Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc, but children should not be expected to participate in worship. If the schools want to have parties to celebrate Christmas, Diwali, or any other religious festival (and yes I do think that Christmas is a religious festival, that's why is has the word Christ in it!), these should be optional and out of school time.

Despite the fact that I think that people are completely mistaken in their views (sorry Aloha!!!) and that I beleive that hopefully in time they will come to faith in Christ regardless of what they are taught at an early age, I still think that people who choose a non religious school shoud expect it to be just that!

SleepyJess · 04/11/2005 12:46

I mean by introducing children to the idea that we are more than just people marching through life, having fun, making mistakes, buying cars, in other words, more than just living and dying. That there is a deeper reason why we are here. And children will accept this.. (there are some lovely books that help them to ponder upon these things).. as you said re the philosophical questions, Aloha..

Original poster
geekgrrl · 04/11/2005 12:48

thank you lilibet. I really appreciate your response and hope I didn't offend with the title, unfortunately a lot of people aren't as reasonable as you appear to be.

OP posts:
aloha · 04/11/2005 12:48

But is there a deeper reason? I think a philosophical approach should not assume a higher power/god.

Goodness me, Lillibet, I'm agree with an evangelist!

So go on then, what about my 'how can heaven be heaven if your kids are in hell?' question!

aloha · 04/11/2005 12:49

'agreeING' Duh.

SleepyJess · 04/11/2005 12:50

"Lovely books" as mentioned ..

All I See Is Part Of Me

and Just Because I am

and

Nighlights

and

Becoming Me

Oh and for luck... not because it's relevent but because I have to tell everyone about this book..

Love You Forever (My children's faveourite.. all 3 of them.. age 13, 6 and 5...)

crunchie · 04/11/2005 12:52

As a non-Christian, but not atheist - I am Jewish. I also find these prayers a real hard issue. However I feel that I have to accept it as my kids go to a CofE school. BUT I didn't have a choice in which school they went to, we live in a village!

So we have prayers in assembly, grace before meals and a prayer at the end of the day. However our school is quite careful to ensure the prayers used are more generic 'god' type things, rather than father, son, holy G etc I alsomake sure that my dd's know they are jewish, with all that entails.

I do feel there is a lot of religion, more than in my day, but I am trying to encourage better RE teaching - for instance they used to visit a catholic and a CofE church, but have never visited a synagogue or Mosque!

Personally I am with Aloha to abolish all paryers within school, But done with sensitivity I can be OK. GG I would talk to your head in a nice way and ask aboutthe content of the prayers etc. WHen I found out Grace was a 2 line prayer saying Thanks for our food etc I was quite happy with it.

aloha · 04/11/2005 12:54

Oh my ds says a thank you for the food before lunch at nursery, and I think it's sweet. But there is no mention of God afaik.

frogs · 04/11/2005 12:56

beckybrastraps, that is the point I was trying to make. But you did it so much more elegantly!

weesaidie · 04/11/2005 12:56

Oh well at my dds nursery she gets her face scratched by other children but that is a different thread!

weesaidie · 04/11/2005 12:57

Yes indeed, BBS and frogs. I agree we all indoctrine our own children but I just disagree that you should have to put up with a non faith school contradicting your own teachings if you will.

beckybrastraps · 04/11/2005 13:06

Interested how far you would go with that weesaidie. If a child with racist parents made a racist comment, would you not want the school to contradict what they were being taught at home?

frogs · 04/11/2005 13:09

Yes, I said right from the beginning that it's reasonable to expect no religious teaching (as opposed to teaching about religion) in a non-faith school. What I was objecting to is the way in which religion seems to get singled out as a unique example of the awfulness of imposing our views on children. And also to the slightly hysterical anti-religious views of a vocal minority, which seems to view all religious belief as a force for evil.

Kelly1978 · 04/11/2005 13:09

Interesting thread. I'm not cofe and I don't put down any religion on application forms. I'm not athiest netiher though.

When I first read alohas feeligns about religion I was quite shocked really. From my point of view it would be very sad not to have any faith, and I would never wish that on my children. I wouldn't have a problem with my kids praying in a christian fashion several times a day at school if they were happy about it. I don't encourage them to pray at home, but they are free to when they want to. The learn about christianity at school, but for now at least seem to hold more regard for what they learn at home. I would think that would be the same for most kids really.

Even if I had alohas viewpoint I wouldn't leave a good school because of that issue. I think if you want to tell your child there is no such thing as God that is your choice. You acknowledge the existance of other religions and can simply explain to your kids that other people believe differently. You can encourage your kids to respect those beliefs while still maintaining your own.

I think it is a bit sad that you would be dissapointed if they had faith when they are older. if my kids grew up and wanted to belive in goblins and fairies (as you see christianity) I still wouldnt be dissapointed in them.

weesaidie · 04/11/2005 13:10

Ha ha! Now we are getting picky. Yes of course I would.

I really am only going as far as religion here tbh and the belief in a higher power. I think it is a different issue.

weesaidie · 04/11/2005 13:12

And I don't think it is a force of evil either, just not something I believe in. That is all. Others can believe, my child can learn about it I would just really rather her not to be expected to participate.

I also don't think my minority is that small really but maybe I am just subconsciously surrounding myself with atheists!

Enid · 04/11/2005 13:14

parp

bookmad · 04/11/2005 13:19

aloha if you took the comment personally then obviously you think the cap fits. My children are taught to think for themselves, but as I'm not looking for them to be clones of their parents I don't think they'll disappoint me.

Chloe55 · 04/11/2005 13:19

I went to a 'non-religious' school but still had prayers every morning in assembly and sang hymns then again at lunchtime. I am an atheist now and tbh was at school, prayers and hymns were just part of school life for me but I never paid much attention to them. I personally think it is unecessary to include them in non-religious schools but I wouldn't feel particularly bothered if my kids were saying prayers etc, which they probably will considering DH is catholic but don't get me started on that!

SleepyJess · 04/11/2005 13:19

This parp thing is mildly irritating.. was funny at first but.. what is the actual point of coming onto a thread without anything to offer.. expressing that it bores you because it has been discussed before (so?).. and buggering off again?? Are we supposed to say 'Oh Enid is bored!! Let the thread die immediately!'?

Just out of interest, like...

beckybrastraps · 04/11/2005 13:21

Sorry weesaidie - I know it was stretching a point, but I do agree with frogs. Religion IS seen as a special case, and I have had lots of discussion with people who will just dismiss someone's views because of their religion, but not accept that their own beliefs are just as arbitrary.

Enid · 04/11/2005 13:22

I'm not bored!

thats not why you parp (well its not why I parp). I am parping to say 'oh dear I could go on and on at length and probably end up having some stupid row with aloha which I dont want to do as I like her really and its a nice day and I'm in a good mood but find it almost impossible to avoid threads with titles like this etc etc'

but parp is shorter

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