4yr Olds to sign contracts - Anyone else disagree?

[Chiccadum]

My eldest has just started school and is in the foundation stage.

She came home with a letter the other day stating that both myself and her HAVE to sign it.

It basically says that she has not to run in school, talk quietly, not damage school property, be helpful and kind, all the things that I have taught her way before school was even thought of.

Is it just me or does anyone else think that it is inappropriate for a child of 4 to have to sign something when they can't read and really understand what they are signing and also when they can't even sign their own name.

Does anyone elses school do this as my daughters school says they have to be signed by law.

there's nothing the school can do if parents don't sign. there is no law saying they have to.

there's nothing the school can do if parents don't sign. there is no law saying they have to. i think it sets a very bad example to the child if a parent refuses however, as it basically gives the child the impression that their parents and the school do not work together for the child. which is stupid. parents should support school and vice versa.

I think the school holidays issue is different. All pupils are allowed 10 days off a year so long as it is confirmed in writing to the school first, and that is doesn't coincide with importnat exams like SATs, GCSEs, GNVQs and A-Levels, etc.

When I was younger I always had my holiday in school term time in the summer. My dad had no choice over his holiday time back then as it was shut down fortnight at the factory he worked in. It was the choice of going on holiday then or not at all.

I do think, however, some people could choose more carefully when they take their holidays if they can. We too have pupils missing the first week or two of the new term, even new year 7 starting the school for the first time. When they come back everyone else is settled and in the swing of things. It must be very hard for the child involved.

Also, please ensure your child catches up with any missed work. At secondary level that really winds me up!!!

hmb, as all your families have signed, has agreement made any difference to the behaviour/attitude of the parents/kids who used to cause trouble? Egypt, of course it is stupid of parents not to back up the school, but lots of them don't and won't.

What I'm getting at is, supportive parents will be supportive with or without an agreement, it's the unsupportive "I know my rights" types who need to learn what they should be doing, and I just wonder whether signing the home-school agreement actually makes any difference to that - when you show a child the form with its signature on, does it say "it's a fair cop guv" and make an effort to co-operate a bit more? Or scowl and mutter and carry on?

I suppose it might bring round some borderline stroppy families so if it just makes a few of them back school more it's worth it - but if there were some kind of penalty for not signing, or breaking the conditions in it, it might concentrate the really unhelpful ones' minds. (Don't know what penalty though!)

are you sure they a re allowed 10 days Claire? - isnt this with the Heads permission?
(If the Head refuses its unauthorised and that can affect attendance rate and refernces from school to employer/college. )

I am ready to be wrong!!

tallulah - nope none of us are teachers but none of us get dictated to over our holidays either, all of our family and friends can book holidays and go on them (sometimes on short notice of a week).

I don't think I would let dp take a job where he wouldn't be authorised to take his holidays as and when, but then again not everyone has that option.

As we are in the situation of not going on holiday during peak times due to the cost we either don't go and have lots of fun days out or we go in the uk (imo nothing wrong with supporting our economy).

And I'm inclined to agree that it shows a lack of respect for education by flouting the rule of attendance for a holiday (not exactly a funeral or even important is it?).

After all it is an example your setting to your children that it's ok to skip school for fun...... but that is just my opinion and I'm sure that others may see it differently.

we too have 10 days a year

Chiccadum,
Our school does these as well and although I agree with them in principle (that everyone should know the school rules and what behaviour was acceptable) I felt that at the age of 4 it was very overbearing. I signed it, but also wrote that DS wasn't as he couldn't read it and could only just write his name! I don't think they had a problem with that, at least no one told got back to me about it.

On the subject of taking time out of school. We have relatives in Cyprus, it costs a fortune to fly during the holidays so even though I would rather they didn't miss any school they do. Some things are more important than a few days of school.

My son had to sign one prior to starting reception - it came as part of the "welcome pack" he quite enjoyed the importance of the occasion - me reading the rules and him sagely nodding his head " be careful" "be kind" etc etc.

As for holidays - as Codswallop says I think it tends to be in agreement with the head - our school requires you give a reason and sign a slip, for a 5 day holiday in Spain I gave "Teaching him to swim" - and it would take a very pedantic head to argue with that (for a 5 year old!)

These documents do not make parent act well, by magic. However, when things get bad and a child's behaviour deteriorates then they can (and sometimes do) bring the parents up short. For exampla, if a child fails to do homework on a repeated basis and the parents do not sign and monitor their homework diaries, the school can pont out that in year 7 the child says they would do the homework, and the parent said they would monitor and support the child. None of the can, at that pont them say , 'No-one ever told me about it'. Or school uniform etc.

It doesn't work by magic, and doesn't work in all the cases, but the school has never had a problem with them. And to be quite honest I don't have a problem with this sort of thing being done at age 11. It's good for all parties to lay dow their resposibilities.

For example the kids in my classes know that homework is set once a week and marked once a week. It helps that they know what to expect.

And I think that failure to sign these hings give kids a very bad idea that the school can't touch them because their parents will not back the school up. And we have little enough to work with as it is.

Sorry about the typos....just got up

I just think these are pretty meaningless in the context of compulsory schooling. They create an illusion of choice where there is none- kids have to go to school and the adults there then make the rules for them. Where's the equality on which a true agreement could be based? The power is overwhelmingly with the school staff and not with the children/parents who are asked to sign these contracts as supposed "equals". What, to take a really minor example, if Chiccadum asked for a change of the rule to allow cheese as well as fruit at break time and a huge number of parents and kids agreed with her? Would they change the rule? I doubt it. I'm not saying that I think teachers shouldn't be in charge, by the way, just that given their unequal and greater power they shouldn't then pretend to enter equal agreements.

I think the whole trend for school contracts probably stems from that "ground rules" phenomenon that dogs every work training session I attend and, while I've no objection per se to people agreeing rules communally and think it's be great for democracy within institutions, in reality I'd guess true communal agreement rarely occurs in schools and that bogus agreements are used, as hmb says, in a rather bureaucratic manner to bring parents and children up short for breaking rules they've "agreed" to without thinking them through. Incorporating democracy into the running of schools is something that is in its infancy in the UK and these sorts of contracts blur the issue further since they are trumpeted as examples of democracy when they are not.

Scummy - I think that's what I was trying to say - wish I was as eloquent as you!

Have signed ours btw - but think they're pointless.

But some schools go over the top wrt to rules and regulations. There's a new Head at the secondary school my 16yr old dd1 attends and I've been told he's having problems making his mark on what is already one of the best schools in Scotland. So, he has tried to bring in dictatorial rules such as what colour underwear the girls should wear!!!!! I was only half-joking when I said I was thinking of complaining to police about teachers perving on teenagers undies.

He is latest wheeze is to try to regulate the style of trousers and skirts worn, which I think is a bit off, since parents will have just been out and bought uniform for the start of the school year. If a school wants to change uniforms, surely over the summer is the time to do it, not part-way through the term?

Tbh, all this man has done is put people's backs up with petty rules and lack of respect for the aged 16+ children in particular. He seems to forget that they don't have to be at school and it won't look good if there is a mass leaving of 16+ students next May, which is how things appear atm.

Am finding this thread interesting and looking at it in light of my child's private school. We are not given contracts like this to sign as I suppose we are buying educational services for our children. However there are very strict rules of behaviour inclduing proper uniform etc and if not adhered to parents will be spoken to immediately.Also where food is concerned, no children take their own, all is provided by school (lunch is included in the price and everyone has to have school lunch ) but dietary differences are catered for individually eg. vegetarian, etc. Don't know where I stand on holidays taken during term time, personally I won't do it (I want to get my money's worth of schooling!) but really I think its bad for the child to miss out. Even at my dd's school where we have longer holidays than the state schools, people take time out as its cheaper (but I think they're forgetting to factor in the week or two's school fees which they still have to pay).

Interesting post scummy. Perhaps schools need a bit more Summerhill. I don't know the whole school rules thing is a tricky one. I need the schools to be flexible with ds1 because some rules would be a disaster for him. For example I would not let him eat a school dinner as I would think it highly unlikely that they would be able to make it gluten free enough - and anyway he wouldn't eat anything they could provide. And I can see the problem with cheese because does that include dunking dippers or whatever they're called or not. I suppose fresh fruit is easy to apply the rule.

I had no problem signing the agreement- although I thought it wsas all a bit wishy washy New Labour- I would probably have thoguht more of it if it was something the school had implemented themselves iyswim. Anyway the school are proving to be flexible with rules for ds1. For example all the children have to line up before coming in from the playground. Well he can't wait very long, so they're starting by having him line up but then come in before the other children so he doesn't have to wait. A bit of flexibility on both sides can go a long way I guess.

Codswallop - The Government allows 10 days off in a year but, as you say, it is with the head's permission. I doubt any head would get away with refusing the basic 10 days though. However, a head may be unwilling at certain times of the year like exam time, for example.

We have a "10 day allowance" given after putting a request in writing to the Headteacher.

However, the school has a "blanket ban" of holidays taken during May. This is purely down to the Years 2 and 6 taking their SATS and he feels that it would be unfair to them if he allowed other Year pupils to take holidays then.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest - the school is one of the best in the area - and I have wanted my children to attend there since DD1 was a toddler - so in return I agree with any rules in place before we attended.

DH and I both prefer not to take our children out during "term-time" and I actually asked DD1 (she's 8) if she wanted to miss school to go on holiday - and her words were "oh no, I'd miss too much work and all the fun we have".

The head at our local high school has recently announced that he will no longer sanction time out of the school term for holidays. This has meant that the level of unauthorised absence is higher than normal for our area. His specific gripe is that the majority of kids at the school come from 'comfortable' families, and a number of them have been taking a week in Feb. to go skiing, with another week in May/June to go somewhere sunny. These are not people who could not afford to go in the school holidays.

seudonim- rules about uniform are not as silly as you might think. at my last school a lot of the girls tried to get away with such short skirts with long thigh length white socks and heels that they looked as if they ought to be earning a few quid up King's Cross, and I can assure you I am not exaggerating. Plus black bras beneath their tight white shirts.Is this ok on a 13 year old girl in school ? so sometimes, kids take the piss such a lot that teachers are forced to become, as you think, petty.

Plus it is awkward and embarrassing for teachers to have to teach groups of child wannabe prostitutes, especially male teachers.

just one thing that strikes me about the home school 'contracts'. Under 5's are not legally obliged to attend school so any contact they 'sign' will be meaningless.

I agree that it's a good idea to have ground rules laid down and given to each child and parent. I'm fine about signing to say I have read the rules. I am less happy when those rules are dressed up as a 'contract'. It irritates me, but mildly. Words on paper.

Now, if breaking the contract resulted in 'fines' and 'imprisonment' and we had school officials performing random checks that we were giving our children proper breakfasts, that's another matter. Not that I think this is the way to go.

The contract exposes how powerless the school is in enforcing its rules when families won't cooperate, IMO. It's a sign of desperation.

I can understand how frustrating it must be for teachers of difficult older children with antagonistic families who don't back up the school's rules. I hope the school contracts do some good, and wait to see what happens.

Donnie, your school is not alone in having wannabie 'working girls', ours does too. I do feel sorry for the younger male members of staff who are openly targetted by some girls. I agree that black bras, skintight clothes and buttons undone everywhere are not accepable standards of dress.

Donnie, I haven't seen any girls dressed as you describe at my dd's school; in fact, pretty much all the students are already well-dressed, with no jeans or trainers etc, and I am sad that you have such a low opinion of teenagers as to think they are 'wannabe prostitutes'. I'm talking about straight leg trousers versus bootleg etc and the timing of the implementation of such rules. If the school wants to have such rules then it should be done at the approproate time.

As for saying that male teachers are embarrassed by girls with black underwear, you might as well say that a girl deserves to be raped because she wears a mini skirt. If a teacher can't control himself with a class of teenagers then I fear he is in the wrong job. Teenagers have always and will always test the boundaries (I well remember trying out the fancy bra thing myself and that wasn't yesterday, I can assure you!), it's par for the course, and this sort of issue isn't worth getting steamed up over. The bigger the fuss made about it, the more disaffected the pupils become.

Perhaps if someone took the time to explain exactly what the school is trying to achieve, it might help, but I believe that teenagers over the age of 16 should be given a bit more credit and not treated with such contempt.

Seudonim, rules about girls underwear? Really? I think it's up to the parents what their kids wear. They are at the age where they want to express their individuality and I think a school uniform is a bit restrictive. When I was that age I would probably want to look sexy too. It's an innocent sort of sexy though, don't you think ? Surely male teachers should be able to handle hormonal teenage girls.