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Original poster

4yr Olds to sign contracts - Anyone else disagree?

122 replies

Chiccadum · 23/09/2003 13:27

My eldest has just started school and is in the foundation stage.

She came home with a letter the other day stating that both myself and her HAVE to sign it.

It basically says that she has not to run in school, talk quietly, not damage school property, be helpful and kind, all the things that I have taught her way before school was even thought of.

Is it just me or does anyone else think that it is inappropriate for a child of 4 to have to sign something when they can't read and really understand what they are signing and also when they can't even sign their own name.

Does anyone elses school do this as my daughters school says they have to be signed by law.

OP posts:
Jenie · 23/09/2003 16:05

These agreements are fine, I say if your child can understand what it's about and knows that these are the rules that they should be following anyway then hey ho and put pen to paper.

Holidays in term time Why don't you have a choice?

Batters · 23/09/2003 16:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jenie · 23/09/2003 16:08

Oh yeah was it not made clear to you that your dd was not allowed anything other than fruit or veg at break? If it was then don't blame the headmistress for enforcing a rule that you basically agreed to by sending your child there.

My dd's school has this rule and I think that it's only right that all the children should have to stick to it.

morocco · 23/09/2003 16:21

but why just limit it to fruit and veg jenie? I'd have thought the idea was really 'no crisps/chocolate/chips' unless the headmistress is a fruitarian out to impose her dietary views on the young and easily influenced. In which case I would be worried. But as it's more likely to be just a healthy eating programme, where's the harm in a piece of cheese? Go cheese eaters!

mumeeee · 23/09/2003 16:22

My children did not have to sign a home school contract.There was a worrd of mouth agreement with the parents and children got housepoints stickers and certificates for varios things.
When they went to high school ( my youngest has just started) we were asked to sign a home school contract. The parents, child and form teacher all signed it. Even then this wasn't compulsary.

Original poster
Chiccadum · 23/09/2003 16:23

NO i wasn't told she was not allowed cheese and as for holidays, dh works set shifts and gets set holidays and cannot change them

OP posts:
whymummy · 23/09/2003 16:42

agree with morocco and as for holidays we have the same problem as chiccadum,ds is only 5 and for the time being we'll go on holiday when dh can take time off,we make sure our son learns while he's away

Jenie · 23/09/2003 17:11

Never met anyone who couldn't have a holiday during the school holidays (lets face it there are lots of them)so that's interesting.

It was made clear to everyone (in booklet about the chosen school and then told when viewing school) about fruit at break times and so I would be cross if at break time another child had something different and then the next day a different childs parents iprovised a simple and easy to follow rule.

I take it were all agreed that children need rules and fruit in their day to day life?

If your child likes to eat cheese add it to their lunch! Don't decide that you don't like one rule and so will ammend it to suit your own needs, eating fruit at break times is cleaner on the play ground as less litter gets blown out of bins, children are healthier and often happier about eating it.

Jenie · 23/09/2003 17:13

morocco - the fruit and veg only is just for morning break not for every meal there Although now you come to mention it......

tallulah · 23/09/2003 17:30

Jenie, I assume you & DH & all your friends are teachers if you've "never met anyone who couldn't have a holiday during the school holidays".

When mine were at primary I worked in a Call Centre full of women. I was 138th on the Leave list and the other 137 women in front of me all wanted holidays during the school holidays. At the same time, DH works in a supermarket. He is NOT ALLOWED (even now) to take time off in a week with a Bank Holiday in it. That counts out Xmas, Easter, May Bank Holiday & leaves us with late July/most of August, when I couldn't go, or February or October 1/2 term. When your budget extends to a week in a caravan in the UK would YOU want to go in February or October?

Those of you lucky enough to be able to take time out in August should feel lucky, not snipe at those of us who can't.

This year we took our 4 out of school (1 primary & 3 secondary) for a week in Feb so that we could take them on their first (and probably last) proper family holiday, to Florida. We'd planned to go in 1/2 term but the price difference to fit it into 1/2 term was over £1000!! We had to go part way through 1/2 term & miss the first week back. They all had to make up the work, quite rightly, and did so. It didn't clash with any exams or other important dates & we won't do it again. I'd pay a bit extra if I had to, if I could go in the holidays, but I'm not rich enough to justify an extra 33%.

tallulah · 23/09/2003 17:34

To answer the original point, all 4 have home-school contracts. I think your head went overboard on the cheese, especially if you hadn't been told first. It's not as if it was a packet of crisps. In DS2's (private) primary they weren't allowed to have fruit with peel.

tallulah · 23/09/2003 17:36

Jenie, I assume you & DH & all your friends are teachers if you've "never met anyone who couldn't have a holiday during the school holidays".

When mine were at primary I worked in a Call Centre full of women. I was 138th on the Leave list and the other 137 women in front of me all wanted holidays during the school holidays. At the same time, DH works in a supermarket. He is NOT ALLOWED (even now) to take time off in a week with a Bank Holiday in it. That counts out Xmas, Easter, May Bank Holiday & leaves us with late July/most of August, when I couldn't go, or February or October 1/2 term. When your budget extends to a week in a caravan in the UK would YOU want to go in February or October?

Those of you lucky enough to be able to take time out in August should feel lucky, not snipe at those of us who can't.

This year we took our 4 out of school (1 primary & 3 secondary) for a week in Feb so that we could take them on their first (and probably last) proper family holiday, to Florida. We'd planned to go in 1/2 term but the price difference to fit it into 1/2 term was over £1000!! We had to go part way through 1/2 term & miss the first week back. They all had to make up the work, quite rightly, and did so. It didn't clash with any exams or other important dates & we won't do it again. I'd pay a bit extra if I had to, if I could go in the holidays, but I'm not rich enough to justify an extra 33%.

hmb · 23/09/2003 17:43

I understand the problems with holidays as Dh has often been unable to take leave during the school holidays. So I am sympathetic to those who take their children out during term time. However, I have been schocked at just how many children have missed the first 2 weeks of the new school year. Added to that, only one child has caught up with the work missed (or even made a start) out of at least 10. The other children have looked at me with total incomprehension when I have told them that they need to catch up the work they have missed and given them the relevant work sheets.

I know that Mumsnet mums will make their kids catch up , but sadly this is not the norm.

Egypt · 23/09/2003 18:22

on topic of 'home school agreements', its right what slinky says. its basically an agreement from the teachers as well as the parents and the children that each will do their best in the areas of reading at home, wear school uniform etc. teachers stick to their side/parents to theirs/kids to theirs. we have them at our school. (me=teacher). this year only one parent out of 150 has refused to sign.

codswallop · 23/09/2003 18:34

Chicca dum I would say go for the holiday you can afford in the hols. If teachers took two weeks off willy nilly there would be an uproar. I really find this attitude ridiculous - if you cant afford it - dont go.

Pimpernel · 23/09/2003 18:36

I agree with Frenchgirl - it seems a very patronising idea to me. Also, I don't think I like the idea of linking dd's behaviour to a quasi-legal document (even if it has no legal status) - I'd prefer to teach her to behave because that's what responsible members of society do, not because she's signed a piece of paper to say that she'll behave. We live in a litigious enough society without actively teaching infants to think in that way.

hmb · 23/09/2003 18:41

Trouble is, Pimpernel, some parents don't teach their children to behave. I realise that mums on mumsnet do, but some parents don't give a toss how their kids behave. I'd rather have people teach their kids to behave because it is the right thing to do, but some don't bother. I have a friend who teaches in primary who tells me that large numbers of parents will not read with their kids because 'That is the teacher's job'. At least home/school 'contracts' make the resoponsibilities of both sides clear from the start

In fact some parents seem to delight in supporting the antisocial behaviour of their children. Odd as it seems, having standards of behaviour on paper can help in making these parents work with the school in the best interests of the child. They can often be very sure of their rights but need some help to realise their responsibilities.

codswallop · 23/09/2003 18:43

Exactly when I taughtI was once told "My kid aint a liar" HMMMMMMMMMMM how many of us could really say that?

And the idea that I could be bothered to make up stories about a spotty 13 year old boy....

CnR · 23/09/2003 18:50

At the secondary I work at they have these too but gives both sides of the 'agreement' - both the schools, the parents and the childs. And all are expected to sign them I have no problem with them at all and, unfortunately, not all parents do back up school rules and some will even activiely go against them. Sorry, but it is true.

I agree it is a bit silly for a 4 year old to sign it but I don't see anything wrong in talking to them about school rules and codes of conduct, or with parents signing to say them will follow the rules and help their child to do so too.

It isn't a legal thing though and you don't have to sign it. Personally I can't see the problem with them. After all some people do need a reminder; at least this is a blanket one and doesn't single anyone out at all.

Pimpernel · 23/09/2003 19:02

hmb, it's interesting to hear that they do seem to work for some parents, but surely the responsibilities can be spelt out, and written down if you feel it's necessary, without tying it into some pseudo-contract? It's the encouraging children to think legalistically that I object to. I think children have to learn about the spirit of rules as well (although maybe it's too late for some parents!).

hmb · 23/09/2003 19:26

I wish that it was possible too, pimpernel, but some people need a lot of 'persuading'.

Some kids come into school with no breakfast, in dirty clothes, without having a wash is goodness knows how long. Some parents don't even try to get the kids to conform to school dress codes. And I do think that there is something to be said for confronting a misbehaving child with the 'proof' that they once agreed set standards of behaviour. I'm talking about secondary kids at this point and not 4 year olds! One of the greatest problems I have with some children is that they have no understanding that their behaviour is their responsibility (not talking about children with specific SEN problems here), and that their behaviour has consequences. I am appalled at the lack of manners that some children have. So many of them have so little understanding of polite behaviour that they think that I am taking the mickey when I say 'please' and 'thank you' to them.

And trust me , by 13 many of them will already spout the law about their 'rights'. I'd just like them to realise that with rights come responsibility.

kmg1 · 23/09/2003 19:51

I approve of home-school agreements, just in terms of reminding families that education is two-way. The infants don't have to sign, just the parents; the juniors have a separate one for the children, which is partly drawn up by them too.

One of the points on the agreement is to ensure children arrive at school appropriately dressed, having had a good night's sleep and breakfast.

janh · 23/09/2003 20:02

Question for the teachers here - what happens if a family refuse to sign it?

hmb · 23/09/2003 20:07

Don't know, to be honest. No-one at the school I work at has ever refused.

jac34 · 23/09/2003 20:48

My DS's started in reception class this year, we had to sign these agreements too.
They are only allowed fruit for break, only milk or water to drink, no sweets, crisps, or fizzy pop allowed in school at all. Which I quite agree with. They are also not allowed to have packed lunches until year 2, and then you have to make a special request to the head teacher. I can see their point, when you see the cr*p that some kids have in their lunch boxes !!!
As for taking holidays in term time, our school is very strict about that as well, the head said it showed a lack of resect for education, which I agre with also. However, DH and I are divided over the issue, so I don't quite know what will happen, when we book our holidays !!!