Does anyone REALLY send their children to private school?

[Mosschops30]

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RRW, firstly, the school we've chosen for DS has quite a number of children with various special needs ranging from those with a physical disability to a child with AS. There is also a good cultural and racial mix. I know this because it's something we asked about when we went to view.

I want my son to learn about differences, diversity and respect but no, that doesn't include 7yr olds who swear at their teachers and who think physical violence is the answer to everything. As for what we 'do' with them. I haven't got the answers. I try every day to help kids like this but that's my choice. It isn't my son's.

As for a teaching assistant's time being constantly taken up 'helping' these kids. This is very true. My class has help for two hours a week. I try to use it for science and D&T as if they're not being contained, sorry I mean supported, then the experiment can often be ruined. Eg are tearing the plants apart and trying to 'saw' each other. How is that fair to the majority of the class? They're already losing out because they never get help or support from the TA.

And can I just say for the third time on this thread that if there was a good state school offering what we need then we'd jump at it. It's not like we just spend the money for the sake of it.

The school we have chosen is also very ethnicaly diverse.....far more so than any of the other schools in the area as it happens (where we live is a very 'white' part of the east midlands), There are children there who are Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, African and from a wide variety of European countries.

The children have celebrated a wide range of festivals, with lots of imput from families, for example Divali involves them eating Indian food made by one of the mums. The Christmas play was a round the world affair, with them singing traditional Maouri songs and Jewish songs and well as traditional carols. And as I say , this is a C of E school.

My experience of this private school is miles away from the 'still upper lip', white is right, Empire Building, ditch the different, school that some Mnetters see.

Been following this thread with interest as we're first-time users of private schools - ds started this term in Year 7. Can't believe anyone would choose to spend this money if they had a good state school nearby! However, so far we've been struck by big hike in expectations academically compared to his happy but not particularly high-flying local state primary. He's enjoying it so far but it's been quite an eye-opener how far 'ahead' the children are who've been at the private school from age 7. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a good or bad thing but it's a striking difference. Perhaps this would be the case anyway in moving from primary to secondary?

I'm not saying all private schools are like this, just as you cannot say that all state schools are under-achievers. I speak from my own experience of both sets of schools.

Of course you wouldn't spend money sending your kids private if the state schools were better, but that's not possible is it? As Aloha said, the private schools are businesses, the state schools simply cannot hope to compete with the resources available to private schools. And of course it is nice to have the choice between state and private.

Private schools are lucky, they have small class sizes, so surely they must do something to keep them small? Surely some children must be turned down? State schools cannot turn children down without a very good reason, they are open to all. But I do feel that private schools are helping to drive a wedge between the educated middle classes and the standard poor.

interestingly there were some facts on private e
ucatin. indpendent schools give $300,000,000 a year and onenin three students have some form of financil support.

it would cost the state an additional 2 billion a year if private schools were closed.

re the pupil teacher ratio, if you get to a critical size 6hey use the extra cash to emply more staff.

Yes children are turned down or have to go on a waiting list Rhubarb for the good private schools.

Because they guarantee a certain size of class, once the classes are full, that's it.

But that's one of the main things you're paying for.

Also some private schools are selective or partly-selective.

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Hi apologies if this has already been answered amongst all the threads but what is your opinion on whether it would help DS1 as he struggles at school so much. His teacher believes that sending him to PS will only make him more aware that he is not as bright as his peers due to the size of class being smaller. Are there not PS's who have areas within the school which would help the ones who struggle. Surely not every child who attends PS is intelligent/quick etc. I would have thought that if the class is smaller it may help DS1 to concentrate more on what is being said. Thanks as always XX

flowertop, it depends on the school. Private schools differ widely in terms of what they offer. Some have a more competitive ethos than others. You have to find out which one(s) will suit your child in your area by contacting them/getting prospectus/visiting

My son struggles and is at the 'botton' of his class. But becay=use there are only 8 kids in his class he can get the help that he needs. There is a classroom teacher and a TA. He is getting an adittional hour of 1 to 1 each week. As a result of this he is making progress. In the state secor this would not happen until mauch later, when he had fallen even futher behind, futher damaging his self estime

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As I have posted before 15% of the kids in the school are on the SN regester. Even through it isn't a 'specialist' dyslexia school there are lots of kids with dyslexia there, and they do very well. Similarly there are kids with adhd and asd who thrive is smaller, quieter classes where there is more structure.

My children went from - as it happens 2 different- state schools to private school at year 7 and I think you would have been hard pushed to differentiate the state and private school children in what is a non-selective (other than on grounds of ability to pay!) secondary. Maybe some different ground covered at primary but that is all - and my 2 have certainly held their own since. Private schools do have more resources but overall I am not convinced that my children are any better off than in a good state school. Even the disruptive pupil factor does not appear entirely to disappear at private schools.
As to private primaries, be aware that some which are attached to secondaries may "counsel" your child out if they are having problems so that they do not end up having to take them at secondary (and academically pushy schools will do the same at secondary). Thus they appear to admit all the ones from their primary and get parents in on that basis.
If your child has problems maybe you should look around other local state schools and see if they can offer more support. My youngest goes to a very small state school whose pupil teacher ratio is far better than most private schools. I am really undecided whether she should follow her older siblings down the private route. Don't forget that once you go down the private route it can be very hard for your child to move back to the state sector if the money runs out.

snailspace how would I get my son assessed what is the best route to take.

Martianbishop how did you find a school which would help your son. Is the whole school designed to support kids who are struggling or are there big differences in the overall ability. Would be interested for some tips on how to find the right school for him. thanksXX

The school isn't designed to be a special school IYSWIM. Ironicaly my dd is very able, te small classes mean that she can also be catered for. For example she is allowed to read at the level that suits her, she isn't limited in any way, but encourages...atm she is reading Lord of the Rings in school (she is 8....lest people think that I am boasting she is crap at maths and her handwriting and spelling are dreadful ) but the small sizes mean that she is catered for.

We found the school almost by mistake and dd went there. Ds follwed (h is 5,5) and we found, to our great pleasure that the school is every bit as good for him. The school prides itself in getting out 'the best is everyone' and does just that in a very warm and supportive environment.

For my two small class sizes are vital

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Have been following this thread with interest... I'm a teacher (State 6th form now) and I fully intend to send my DD private when she reaches year 7. (Can't afford it before, and will spend the next 8 years saving for it!) Why? Because quite simply I feel I owe it to her to give her the very best start I can.

Class sizes do make a difference. I used to teach in a state school with only 25 students per class, then moved to a school with an average of 33. Yet, even I noticed it was that much harder to give all the students the individual time they deserved. In my MA, we looked at research on this, and it does make a difference... especially in the younger years.

But there are also the constraints of the teachers' time to consider... In my subject it is entirely mixed ability classes, and I've taught classes where some students have been doing 'A' levels in their spare time, stuck in the same class with students who have a reading age of 7. I only have so much time, and I have to provide a lesson that meets all of these abilities in one class. What tends to happen is that the lower ability students get extra time spent on preparing their lesson/individual work (otherwise they play up) and you plan the work for the bulk of the class. But what about the really bright stduents? When you teach full time and are only given 3 hours a week to do all of your marking / planning / preparing resources etc something has to give. So what tends to happen is that the bright kids tend to be a lower priority. Teachers know they tend to behave so they get the same work as everyone else and a few extension activities. It fills their time, but does it really stretch them? Sure, these students 'do okay' but are they really getting the education they deserve? My friends in private get loads more time for planning than those in state schools, inevitably they get more time to spend on really stretching individual students, in a way that is virtually impossible given the amount of planning time a teacher in a state school is given.

I teach 'A' levels and I've said this before.. but there are 4 marks that separate out a 'B' grade from a 'D' grade in my subject (per essay that is). Quite simply, the best way to find those marks is for me to go over the essays with students individually and tell them how to do it. Each student obviously has different reasons why their marks are lower than they could be... yet in my contract I am not allocated any time to spend indivually with students working on their exam technique. My friend in a private school is allocated time for this. I choose to give up my lunch hours to help students do this, and as a result I get very good results from my students... but not all teachers do this... yet we all know the difference between getting a handful of Bs at A level and mostly Ds.

Finally, there is the impact of having badly behaved students in class. One or two badly behave students can seriously throw a whole lesson. Whilst teachers can waste hours placating these students (to the detriment of those who do want to work), there are no real means to remove these students. I know of one school where 5 senior managers have to be on duty every lunch and break time to police the school because of one very badly behaved student, which they are not yet allowed to throw out! It is a complete waste of their time, and who suffers? The other children - there are only 24 hours a day and 2 hours taken out to police one student's behaviour means two hours less time to spend on other students.

I could cite hundreds of other examples, but I won't I'll just say there is a reason why so many state school teachers want to send their students private... mainly because we know the truth of the state school system!

(Interestingly, I have only ever taught at so called excellent schools - specialist schools, becaon status, Times good school guide etc etc!!)

I plan to send both our children to private schools, although probably only at secondary level where I feel there is such a marked difference between state/private sector.

The reasons? It's not just the academic results that appeal, and tbh dd is not yet 3 so really cannot tell how intelligent she may be. It's more the fact that discipline is so poor in the state schools we have looked at, often reflected in totally unsuitable attire being worn in school which never ceases to amaze. Another concern is the amount of bullying that seems to be on the increase and, sadly, not dealt with appropriately. When I talk to friends who use the private sector, these problems are properly addressed, and quickly too. So yes, it will be a significant financial burden but we plan to economise in other areas so we can do this.

I know for certain that some private schools label under-achieving students as 'special needs', in this way, the under-achievance of that pupil will not affect the overall performance of the class and the school. So if little Johnny is coming bottom of the class in Maths, they will approach you about putting him forward for special needs. Their argument is that he will not be labelled special needs forever, when he does well he can be taken off the register, he also gets his own teaching assistant. But all the school is really interested in, is keeping their scores high and they don't want little Johnny to affect that, it also fills in their special needs quota quite nicely. So I am not surprised that some schools say they have a 15% rate for special needs, this is why.

Of course we all want what is best for our children. Some have choices as to which schools their children can go to, others do not and so have to do the best they can with the resources available. I think it's great that so much time and effort is put into planning ahead for your child's education. My point is simply that it is a shame that not every child gets the same chances as others.

I went to a very bad state catholic secondary. I left with one GCSE in Religion, Grade C. I then had to get a job to support myself. I learnt very quickly, and I'm glad things turned out the way they did. I went to University at the ripe old age of 25, most of my peers were 18. To me they seemed incredibly naive of the world, some were privately schooled and had no idea how to deal with certain situations. They had a very hard time readjusting.

So whilst I want my children to achieve and do well, I don't want to protect them from the real world either, because sooner or later they will have to deal with it and I'd rather send them out there fully prepared. Plus I do believe that you do much better in education when you're a little more grown up and actually want to learn, as opposed to having to learn. So if my kids don't get a single qualification, I'm not going to sob and wail about my shortcomings as a parent. I'll send them off to work and hope that they soon realise the benefits of education, then college will beckon and they will make the better students for it.

RRW, given that I have met some of the children on the sn regester in my kids school, and you have not, I rather think that I am better qualified to decide why they are on the regester.

Some of them have aspergers, some have adhd and some are quite profoundly dyslexic/dyspraxic.

It seems a shame that you have to paint a school trying to help children with SN in such a negative light.

Copare this to the local state comprehensive who refused my friend profoundly dyslexic son (who now goes to the same school as my kids) a place (despite the fact that we are wihtin walking distance of the school, with a letter that said, 'If your child has been rejected due to SN, please do not bother to appeal'. And yes, I know this breaks the DDA.

The school we have chosen for DD (private, if she gets in) is very ethnically diverse. They are not all white, middle class by any stretch of the imagination - not round here anyway.

DH's colleague has a young son with AS (quite severe from what DH says). After looking at many many schools they chose a boy's private school for him as that school could offer him the est education, care and chances than any of their other options. He has been there for 2 or 3 yearsI think and they are happy.

Really should read whole of new posts before writing to avoid extra posts later!

Re class numbers at private. Our experience from looking round some is that private schools here do limit numbers and entry. They set class sizes they are happy with and stick to them., There are waiting lists, and some children will not get a place. In our cases round here, the children go for an assessment interview and of they pass they are in; if not they move to the top of the reserve list if that makes sense! Not best terminology used there I know.

However state schools do limit numbers too - just that there limit is normally higher - generally 30 o a class. That's why some schools are over subscribed and some childre are turned away.

2 points:

one is the news reported this week that the best state schools (as in top of the league tables) don't actually represent their local areas. Many state schools and particularly the best ones select their pupils either by 'aptitude' or religion or, more covertly, by requiring parents to attend an interview even though ostensibly these schools are not selecting on grounds of ability.

Secondly, in response to Speedymama's points about teachers' decisions to send their children to private schools implying a criticism of the state sector. As a lefty, idealist, newly qualified teacher, I started my career in a secondary comprehensive where teaching was all mixed-ability thinking that I just needed to be firm but fair, love and understand my subject, work hard and have a good lesson plan and my students would all behave well and work hard. How wrong I was!! As others have mentioned I spent all my time with the weaker students (many with English as a second language, behavioural difficulties and very low reading ages) and had no time to help the students at the top of the class. The majority of students were fine but I regularly came home in tears because of the minority of students who had been disruptive and sometimes abusive. During my PGCE I had about 2 hours training on special needs and about an afternoon on behaviour management and no training at all on how to identify or deal with dyslexia or other reading difficulties (typical for teacher training courses). When I spoke to the parents of disruptive students they either defended their child's behaviour or despaired of it themselves. I did not feel that I was being fair to my students or myself by continuing in this environment, so I left and eventually got my current wonderful job in a state sixth form where by-and-large, students are well-motivated and, although classes are mixed-ability, there is nothing like the range at an average secondary school because students have to have a grade C at GCSE to take AS Levels. Admittedly, many teachers at the school I left were better at managing the students' behaviour than I was but, worryingly, many weren't and are still at the school.

DP, also a teacher, has recently done supply teaching in many, v. difficult local secondary schools, and although he is a much better and tougher teacher than me, he has been in appalling situations e.g. once a whole class walked out and no action was taken, and on several occasions he was told by Middle Managers that the class had had supply teachers for weeks and weren't really expected to do any work. He now works in a state school for students with several emtional and behavioural difficulties and is actually much happier there and finds it much easier than an average comp because the students' special needs are recognized and they are properly supported in small classes. For all these reasons and more I want my children to go to private school. This is not a decision I've taken easily and I am very sorry that I feel I have to. It is precisely because I know what life is like for a well-behaved, well-motivated, academic child in a state school that I am going to send my children to private school if possible. Is it so wrong of me to want my children not to have to 'learn to be patient' with children who are violent and abusive and disrupt others' learning? Is it so wrong of me to want my children not to have to study their GCSE and SATS texts by watching a video then reading a page-long synopsis because other students in the class can barely read or write? I think the state system is wonderful in many ways and teachers in the system do an incredible job in difficult circumstances. I have total respect for them but the best teacher in the world will find it difficult to cope with the weakest and most disruptive children and still do justice to the students who are well-motivated and able.

Rhiann, I could have written your post myself, but you put it all far better.

Spending a little time in a couple of classrooms is quite an eye opener, isn't it?

I hope to be able to make the decision when my children are ready for secondary school (and isn't that the greatest privilege, to be able to make that choice). I don't personally think that private primary schools are worth it unless your local schools are very poor, or there is some other reason why your child needs more support / a different environment. That's the route my parents took with us, and it seems to have worked out well. Of my friends with children of the same sort of age (I have ds 6 and dd 5) they all go to different schools, including both state and private, and they all seem to be doing fine at the moment. If I still live where I do right now, I will be seriously thinking of private secondary, as both of our local school are very bad. However I think that it is really important to look at individual schools, and not to judge private good state bad, or vice versa. I know of private schools with terrible drug and bullying problems, and state schools with good discipline. I know poor teachers at private schools, and great ones at state schools. You just have to really do your homework, and at the end of the day if your child does not feel like behaving themselves and studying then it really doesn't matter where they are, you will have to wait until they are old enough to decide to put themselves through education in their own right.