Who gets the best jobs?

[fizzyfanta]

I wonder if anyone watched this programme on BBC2 last night.

Whilst I appreciate that children from poorer backgrounds are not exposed to the same resources as those who have been privately educated, I cant help think that sometimes,these children are let down by their own parents and possibly their schools for not giving them enough courage to make them believe that 'they can be who they want to be'. Surely, the whole thing is being generalised and private education is being used as a scapegoat for the failures of the state system?

I am with mumof2girls2boys

stop bashing private schools - state schools could learn a few things from how they work and parents should help guide their own children

failures in some comps is the reason why some parents tutor their children to go to grammar schools.

oh and I am a mum to a state educated child.

Does it also depend on where you live. I reckon I could get a top job if I lived in the South East, but I live in South Yorks and talk in a Yorkshire Accent. More should be done to get jobs into areas of high unemployment to give youngsters hope that they can find a job of some sort.

Isn't the pupil premium a way of giving more resources to deprived schools? I doubt it will do very much to address inequalities.

Why do people see it as "private school bashing" to point out the quite obvious - that children who go to these schools will have much better opportunities than those who don't. And not because the children are inherently superior.

Or do people who send their children to private schools like to justify it by telling themselves that their children are inherently superior?

No private school bashing here. I happily pay my fees each term.

However I'm honest enough to admit what they give to my child.

Though to be fair, they might get those things anyway, given their familial, social and economic status.

Yes that's fair litchick.

Private school can't guarantee success, same as a shit school won't guarantee failure. Other factors come into play - not least the personality of the child. What these things all do is stack the odds.

what amazed me was that PR was being referred to as a profession! Blimey. Similarly journalism although I'm not so at that, but it isn't a profession is it - no professional exams etc

That prof wasn't saying that working class were less intelligent overall, he said that proportionately there were more intelligent people in the professional classes than the working classes. Which must be right, even if you don't like to admit it...

I really wanted to know about the educational background of the journalist!

Me too.
He seemed genuinely aggrieved by the state of affairs.

To be fair to him, many of us who come from working class backgrounds and have achieved a 'top' job (by which I suppose one means well paid, influential etc) are shocked by how harder it is for children from similar backgrounds today.

Even more shocking is that children from solid middle class backgrounds would find it difficult to do what I did today.

What I mean is in ye olden days one could go to university for free, and one didn't need to do an internship in London with Ma and Pa still supporting you.

Even solid middle class parents would struggle to fund that.

I cannot understand how unpaid internships are allowed to exist. What is the minimum wage for? I read a very good article in a law journal a few months ago setting out all the legislation etc and stating that it was clear that many/the majority of these "internships" were employment and should be paid at at least minimum wage.

1 or 2 week work experience, fair enough but anything else... that poor bloke who had 32 of his articles published - how is that not exploitation?

"What these things all do is stack the odds."

Agree ISNT.

A private education is no guarantee of, say a place at a good university, but it does make it very likely.

Likewise attending a weak state school doesn't totally preclude a place at a good university - but it makes it very unlikely.

That's why many of us who 'beat the odds' ourselves and got to HE from a poorly performing school - aren't prepared for our own dc's to 'play those odds'.

Hence the rise of the prayers, payers and the into 'good catchment area' movers.

Quite.

It seems like a rite of passage these days.
Then again, even if they did offer a subsistence wage as they do researchers in Westminster, it won't cover living and travel expenses in London will it?

A friend's son is currently working as a runner at a television production company for £8k.
He can only do it because he lives at home (which happens to be in London) and his parents pay his oyster card. He's 23

victoriah3 I totally agree with you. It about time that various governments work towards giving companies incentives not only based on tax breaks and grants but invest in the Northern Towns to make them attractive for people to move to, visit and do business. I'm fed-up as a Londoner to have people living here that don't like it but feel they have no choice. The trains are crowded, schools, hospital you name it. Why don't we have good 2nd Cities like Barcelona, Valencia, Seville. I like going to Yorkshire to see the countryside can't bear the grim towns of closed shops and no investment in the Arts. I love York though which is lovely. I know a lot of staff are being pushed to move to Salford which is a start

Sorry BBC are transfering dept to Salford.

Really good points, Jackstarb, really sums it all up.

I found the programme completely depressing really, although the inclusion of PR was pretty I thought that went with events management as something rich girls did.

The expansion of university places has meant that the rules have completely changed. DH works in a top London firm when he started in his profession a good degree in the appropriate subject was all that was needed. Now a candidate would be expected to have all sorts of extra curricula stuff, done relevant work experience and have a good degree from a limited pool of universities. The candidates aren't any better than before but there are just more hoops to jump through and the work experience is ten times easier with contacts in the profession (he isn't a lawyer by the way!).

There isn't an easy answer but I'd start by banning all tv talent shows and rip up any magazines with WAGs or Z list celebrities in them. (Got a bit carried away with the thought of that and actually considered a rampage in W H Smiths )

I have to say that my son is so beautiful, creative and clever that all of this doesn't apply to us Ha Ha Ha. But we are prayers and have paid (could not continue) and will be paying for tutoring as I feel that that's what I needed as a kid as I'm not that bright

Thanks Takver

twopeople So true. You can always follow in your parents footsteps as they can guide you. That's why some families are 'Doctors' 'Teachers' and 'Police Officer' Going outside your families knowledge can be huge step. Just imagine if you've only know how to claim benefits and have been knocked back with every step. add to that industry closing around you. As a Londoner it's possible to find another job before my present job I have been A sales assistant, Export Clerk, back room on Unit Trust shares, Railway ticket clerk and working on Tenders for the Middle East Clients!

"It did make sweeping generalizations. I found the bloke who was a professor who stated that middle class children have more intelligent DNA than working class children, that it had nothing to do with the resources available to them, is a liar and a cheat."
Erm, he said on average MC children etc etc. He said it was a sweeping generalisation. If we are conflating the middle classes with the professional classes, who make their living from their intellect, then it is hardly surprising that MC children on average do better because they have nurture, nature and money on their side.
However, intellect is not totally inherited so you can have thick MC kids and bright WC kids. No-one disputes that. ( apologies for non-PC shorthand)

"I wonder if the lower ability children in private schools are pointed in the direction of manual work. I doubt it somehow."
You do know that the Queen's nephew took up carpentry bespoke furniture, don't you?
I don't think that the rest do manual work, as such. They instruct others to do that and call themselves Estate Manager.

"What I mean is in ye olden days ... one didn't need to do an internship in London with Ma and Pa still supporting you."
Never mind working for free, in ye olden days you had to buy your place to be apprenticed in Accountancy and Law. Your father paid a fee to your Principal (mentor) to get you Articled.

I think that the programme concentrated far too much on the service industries. There are other well-paid, respectable jobs apart from law, finance and medicine.

Purits, you seem to be saying that that social mobility has improved.

Or do I misundertsand you?

Yes and no.

Remember the days of the Frost Report and "I know my place"? I think that there is more social acceptance of mobility these days. But it is probably harder to actually do, so you have to be pretty determined to overcome the barriers.