University Fees

[Xenia]

I see that Lord Browne in his report may apparently suggest (Sunday Times today):

• rights for universities to charge fees of up to £10k a year rather than the £3200 or whatever it now is perhaps from 2012

• removal of cheap loans for children of the middle classes (presumably even if their parents are not prepared to help them)

• interest rate susidies on loans going up 2%

• students who go into high paid careers will have to pay back more than they borrowed perhaps capped at 20%

• and one which pleases me - parents will be able to avoid the graduate tax for their children if they pay the fees in advance. None of my older 3 children took out student loans as I paid as I wanted them to be in the same position when I graduated in the days when there were no fees paid by students.

However the report is not yet finished and he may recommend abolishing the cap on tuition fees and let the free market rule which may be wise.

You just can't predict how life is going to turn out, though. It's a very simplistic way of looking at things. You may have a child with a disability, which means you can't really work. You may get a disability yourself.

Incidentally, re teaching - the teacher training isn't what costs the money, it's the subject degree you need first. Xenia, presumably you like the fact that your children are taught by clever people with good degrees from respected universities. If they all thought of money and went and worked in the City instead, who would give your children this fab education you're forking out for and which you are so confident will lead them to earn 100s of £k?

I'm not going to get upset about this as I'm hoping they might help fund children from very poor families, i.e. £25K and under income, so that's us atm.

"If you're going to work 5 years until you can snare a man foolish enough to keep you as a housewife and never have much of a career thereafter then the sums look different - in that case you'd be better going to finishing school at 18 to find a rich husband."

Unbelievable !

In fact many women find that it is cheaper to take a career break rather than pay for child care, and most do go back to work. As people have said before there are worthwhile careers that pay less than 100k.

Most teachers could not get jobs as doctors or in the City. It is easier to become a teacher than those other jobs. There will always be loads of people whoc an't get into better paid jobs who go into worse paid ones. It's how free markets work and of course people who want to paint or write poetry and earn £5k a year even if they could instead earn more elsewhere.

I don;'t have a wage at all. I only eat if I kill. If I'm sick I am paid nothing. If I take a holiday I am paid nothing. Nor do I hav a second income. I support 4 and previously 5 children alone. Lots of women do and plenty send their children to fee paying schools and put them through univesrity. Just because you're female doesn't mean you have to sacrifice your life on the altar of domestic service and low pay. It's much more fun to earn.

Xenia that is bollocks. I have a first from Oxford amongst my qualification and before I was a teacher did other well paid jobs. I could not be a doctor, granted. Some of us are just not that interested in earning a lot of money.

I think it's a good idea to take more money of people like Xenia if it funds children from lower income families . Was there anything mentioned about this?

I cannot imagine there are many children from poverty who apply for med school so provided one jumps through all the very difficult hoops and manages to get a place a good bursery might be available.

Even if mummy and daddy arn't doctors it's still possible to get work experience to put on a PS. Mine has just arranged two placements. Bless her I secretly block out the thought that she doesn't stand a chance.

I don't really see what your point is. There are plenty of men who earn a low wage as nurses etc. I don't think the issue here is women earning low wages.

P.S. Are you a hit woman or something ?

I agree in part about eve, if someone has to pay uni fees I would rather it was someone like Xenia or even someone like me on a comfortable middle income. Although as I said the only reason we are comfortable is because we only have one child.

A good degree doesn't always guarantee a high paying job these days. And

Anyway, I'm pretty annoyed with this. My brother and I are both on track to attend university in 2012, and my parents can't afford 20k for just one year. This is really going to deter a lot of people, particularly for things like medicine! We'll have less people in graduate but lower paid jobs too. I don't see how this is possibly supposed to work out.

I want to go to uni in Ireland, so hopefully they won't follow suit over there. Or here in Wales either. Hopefully it won't happen until at least 2016 too.

An increase of fees of circa £7k per annum is an awful lot and does seem rather unfair on the current year 12s if it's implemented overnight. I'm half tempted to advise ds to apply to university a year early - he could have 3 full Alevels and an AS by the end of the academic year if he modified his plans a little, but would have to settle for a lesser university and/or a different degree I think. If it really would save ~£20k (4 year course) it almost seems worth thinking about.

Xenia, if someone can get a job in a good private school they can almost certainly make more money doing something else.

I don't really see where the woman thing comes in. Lots of men get shit pay too, and plenty of women make a good whack. This thread isn't really about university fees anyway, it's about you congratulating yourself for being you. So well done you.

I am interested in university funding as I've had three children go recently and I've been waiting to see what Lord Browne reports. We don't even know what his report says yet as this is just a press report of what it probably will say nor if the Government will accept its recommendations.

No one is proposing profits though as someone suggested above. The courses cost this kind of amount to run I think although some are more expensive than others.

It's pretty mistaken to assume that teachers are not paid much. A job for life with 13 weeks holiday year and one of the very few jobs left with a final salary. Frankly I'd much rather be a teacher than a banker or business person right now on financial grounds alone.

But the idea that workign ridiculously long hours to earn stack loads of money is somehow a good thing to do or even that it's likely to bring you and your family happiness is really bizarre.

Actually there's been all that research recently that says any income ovre £50,000 makes you more UNHAPPY.

I go to sleep at night knowing that I have a stable income which has been honestly earned and I have a rewarding job to go to the next day which is not only interesting but also one of the most important jobs there is because it involves educating the next generation and I'm never more than 8 weeks from the next holiday and rarely at work past 4.30 pm. I still manage to send my kids to independent school but I also spend time with them and their father (also a teacher) after school, in the evening and at every holiday.

What exactly helps you sleep at night Xenia? Counting all your money and gloating over the fact that you earn so much more than everyone else. Because, personally, I can't imagine anything more sad.

I meant to say also headteachers can earn up to £200,000 a year these days for better or worse.

Well, between us, DH and I earn around £35k.There is no way we could ever afford to pay £10k per year in university fees and it seems grossly unfair that DC1 should be penalised because we don't earn 'enough' to be able to pay up front. DC1 is at a good uni, doing a tradtional and difficult subject. After graduation, DC1 is hoping to teach, so unlikely to be earning the sort of money suggested by Xenia. Or should we force DC1 into a career which will be 'well paid' even if it is of much less use to society than teaching would be?

And , btw, the implied criticism of those who earn £20k or thereabouts, is very cruel. Many people earning that work bloody hard in jobs that are important even though they pay rubbish money.

So what lucrative careers are your female DC going onto, Xenia?

Not all of the over 18% of 6th formers have parents who are paying the full whack of expected 10k/annum fees (and can continue to do so). Some are on bursaries; some are funded by relatives or trusts (whose future income is naturally limited).

Touché.

I do work evenings but I work part-time school hours so I can pick up my kids from THEIR school and do my marking and prep when they've gone to bed. Of course, I work in the holidays and sometimes at weekends but as dp is a teacher too we can easily fit that around family life.

Point being that choosing a career purely on the basis of how much money you earn is risky for all sorts of reasons not least because of the impact that earning stack loads is going to have on family life and your own personal life.

I didn't say that I did not earn a lot of money, I am a senior teacher so do earn a good wage. It is a fration, however, of what I earned previously. But in that job I needed paying a lot, now I do not as I enjoy what I do.

I agree Riven that often people who can independently educate also have the contacts that account for some of their success. I don't begrudge them that, I am sure that I would also exploit such contacts. We all want the best for our children.

Which are the Russell Group? Is it Oxbridge, Imperial, UL, Durham and Bristol?

My dd has just started with the fees at £3200. I hope that they are guaranteed until she graduates in 2013. My late father gave me the tuition fees for my two, how lucky was that!! But not enough for £10K a year!!

'Um, maybe the fact that even with perfect grades it is quite likely you will be rejected from every university you apply to

Yep, that's what happened to my cousin this year: A's at A Level, garde A music, plays in a band, volunteered at hospital for eyars, DofE.... no offers. nobody has a clue why, feedback is just that it is a competitive subject.

Except yes, but if you don't try you can't succeed, so what does he do now with no offers and a year to fill.... (answer is probably something, Aunt is very capable to sort (former HR at big multinational LOL, but Mum hasn;t said yet).

It's a risk though.

Luckily ds1 doesn;t want to go to Uni for the career he wants, maybe it's even lucky that ds3 can't go to university for his SN, so only leaves ds2 and ds4. Maybe i'll sell DH? he's very handy with a mop

If they want to go they'll go, the4y'll take the laons and we will do all we can to help them manage the repayments. I am not letting a had-it-easy-themselves bunch of over priviledged pricks stuff it for them