Ex refusing permission for holidays outwith UK

[Exasperated80]

Last year my ex refused to give permission for me to take our daughter to America for a holiday. He refused mediation and gave our solicitor the run around and we ended up having to go to court. The Sheriff found in our favour and we eventually got to go. However it resulted in a solicitors bill of £8,500!

Our daughter is 14 and desperately wants to go abroad again, however her dad has refused permission for her to leave the UK. This included a ski trip to France organised by her school.

I don't think I've any option but to go to court again but can't possibly afford the cost of last time!! Scottish law doesn't seem as straightforward as English law in that there not just a form you can complete. Everything I find just says to speak to a solicitor. Does anyone in Scotland have any experience and/or advice? Thanks 🙏

What would happen if she tried to leave via ireland? As supposedly they dont ask for passport so perhaps not for other parents?

What are his reasons as to why he doesn’t want DD going overseas, including school trips? Are school aware that her father is preventing her from attending school trips overseas? Absolutely ridiculous for her father to control her life like this, I can’t understand the reasoning.

It sounds like you need a contact order, though I’m not sure what the similar situation would be in Scotland. Certainly in England and Wales if you had a contact order that allowed each parent to take the child out of the country for a certain period then you would be operating according to the order. My ex made my life a living hell around holidays but I would just ignore him and tell him what I was doing that he had been given plenty of notice and it was reasonable.

For further context, I would give him nine months notice and say that I was going to take our DD abroad on holiday to X place. He would then ignore my email and then at the last minute say I don’t give you permission. I would then just ignore him and say I gave you plenty of fair warning.

I know your ex is saying he’ll accuse you of child abduction but clearly no court would entertain that because it’s absurd Particularly for a trip to York. Would he then follow through and try and take you to court? Paying for solicitors who will tell him he had absolutely no case? I’d be tempted to call his bluff.

On the one hand, part of me thinks that you should correct her on this and say “of course you are allowed out of the uk if both of us are happy for you to go, but dad is refusing to let you for no good reason”.

However, she’s 14, she’s not stupid, and it seems to be that her choice is for a peaceful life and a relationship with both of her parents without any more court cases. She may become more angry about it in the future but at the moment you seem to be more bothered about the ski trip than she does which is exactly what your ex wants. As much as it pains me to say it, I’d let this one go.

God what an absolute arsehole. I hope you can get this sorted. As an English person it always seems to me that Scottish law is far more sensible than English laws and I hope you can find a way through.

I’d love to ask him why he’s doing this. He’ll have some excuse of course. But the reality is that he’s trying to exert control over you and doesn’t care who’s hurt in the cross fire. He’s controlling his dd as well of course she for the moment accepting it which worries me a bit.

I mean whilst technically he does need to give permission, I would just take her and see what happens when you get back.
Nobody is going to do a thing - it's not abduction when you have a return flight and will be returning her.
It seems a shame for her to miss out because of him and you spending money going to court all the time when you're giving your daughter a brilliant quality of life x

Speak to your solicitor about getting a child arrangements order in place which states that you can legally take her out of the country. I’ve got one that says I can take my son out of the country and only need his permission if it is beyond 28 days. Then there is nothing he can do about it.

What a prick scuppering his own child’s enjoyment to get one over on you.

Tiny silver lining. As you're in Scotland this will all end when she turns 16 as that is the age children in Scotland are considered to have legal capacity. She could get married/travel abroad without either parents permission.
I don't actually think anything would happen if you took her abroad without his permission. She's a teenager not a 2 year old. She can speak for herself. I've travelled as a lone parent for 16 years and never been stopped or questioned.

Thank you all for your replies. It looks like I might just have to accept that my daughter is stuck with UK holidays for the next few years. It's just a shame for her. She absolutely knows that her dad's in the wrong but I think she feels sorry for him and just wants to keep him happy.

I never went abroad until I was 16 and it never did me any harm so 🤷🏻‍♀️ It's the only hold he has over me now, so maybe I just have to make like Elsa and let it go!

No, only if you have a court order in place that states this. He also has PR so there is a lot he can do to prevent her going. It's not worth going without permission.

Does he go on holiday abroad?

If so, I'd be very tempted to sabotage his next holiday by calling the airline/hotel and cancelling his booking if I could get hold of the necessary information to do so.

Note, "tempted" 😆!

Hahahaha there's a lot that I'm tempted to do believe me! He hasn't been abroad for a few years and my daughter has told me she's not likely to want to go with him again (past ones have been a disaster!!) I have told her that if she ever does want to though I won't stop her. Not likely to happen, but it depends how much she wants to get some sunshine 😂

Any other ways you could make his life particularly miserable?

Assuming that there's not a hope in hell that he wants more contact time than he already has, I might start dropping heavy hints that you're thinking about going travelling and "finding yourself", maybe working abroad for a bit, so he might find himself RP in the near future.

Why have you come to this conclusion despite all the advice you have had on here? Surely it's worth representing yourself to get an order allowing her to leave the country for up to, say, 28 days a year if she wants to?

Unfortunately legal advice on another thread is that I would need to get legal representation, which I just can't afford right now. The process in Scotland is different to that in the rest of the UK.

However someone has suggested that my DD might be able to get legal representation herself so I'll explore that ☺️

I think you've been misinformed. For most European countries (not sure on the USA) you don't need permission. He can't report you for child abduction for taking your child on holiday. He can't really report you for child abduction in any case as you have PR. All he could do was appeal to the court by which time you'd be back.

It was my solicitor who advised of the need for consent from both parents. It's within the children (Scotland) act so different to the rest of the UK. The USA prefer a notarised letter from the other parent. The likelihood of being asked for proof is low (we didn't get asked at all last year) but if you're asked and don't have it you could literally be denied entry. With the way things are with him I would never run the risk!!

You're posting this very confidently but you're completely wrong

www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

@Exasperated80 A divorced parent in Scotland wanting to take their child abroad on holiday without the other parent's consent would need to apply to the court for a "Specific Issue Order" by filing a court application, outlining the details of the proposed trip, including dates, destination, and reasons why it's in the child's best interest, and can represent themselves in court, although seeking legal advice is highly recommended to ensure the application is properly prepared and presented.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-c100-application-under-the-children-act-1989-for-a-child-arrangements-prohibited-steps-specific-issue-section-8-order-or-to-vary-or-discharge

you can download the required forms here. have a good read and perhaps take them to citizens advice, they often have a solicitor on duty.

Just had a google and you can file a petiton to the court

I have a friend who had a nasty divorce and then wanted to move abroad permantently with her DC. Her ex contested it, it went through the court and they found in favour of the mum there was no good reasons for the court to stop the move. She is happily living on the other side of the world, has to fly her child back 3 times a year to stay with the dad.
If there is no reason to stop the holiday, no concerns etc I am pretty sure the court will find in your favour.

Unfortunately this only applies to England and Wales. The Scottish way is far more complex. I have googled to the ends of the earth, and although possible to represent yourself, it's so much of a process I don't think I can do it!

Thanks to everyone for your replies. I posted over on the legal thread and someone signposted me to this, which is the process in Scotland https://www.sharedparenting.scot/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Representing-Yourself-in-a-Scottish-Family-Court-2021-edition.pdf for anyone who might be looking for something in the future.

I'm going to read more thoroughly, but it's a pretty convoluted process and I don't know at the moment whether I can do it alone, without a solicitor 😞

I asked Chat GPT:
In Scotland, if a mother shares custody (which is legally referred to as parental responsibilities and rights (PRRs)) with her ex-partner and he refuses to allow her to take their child out of the country for a holiday, she has a few options:

1. Check Any Existing Court Orders
• If there is a court order (such as a residence order) in place that states the child lives with the mother, she may be allowed to take the child abroad for up to 28 days without the father’s consent, unless the order specifically states otherwise.
• If there is a specific court order prohibiting travel, she must seek the court’s permission.

2. Negotiate with the Father
• If no court order exists, both parents who have PRRs must agree before taking the child abroad.
• The mother could try to resolve the issue through mediation to reach an agreement.

3. Apply for a Court Order (Specific Issue Order)
• If the father refuses to give permission, the mother can apply to the Sheriff Court for a Specific Issue Order under the Children (Scotland) Act 1995.
• The court will consider the child’s best interests when deciding.
• If granted, this order will allow her to take the child abroad for the holiday.

4. Emergency Situations
• If there is urgency (e.g., a planned holiday approaching), the mother may be able to request an urgent hearing at the Sheriff Court.

5. Can the Father Legally Prevent Travel?
• If the father has PRRs and strong objections, he may apply for an Interdict to prevent the child from leaving Scotland.
• However, he would need to provide valid reasons (e.g., risk of the child not returning).

Key Considerations
• If the mother takes the child abroad without consent or a court order, this could be considered child abduction under Scottish law.
• Courts typically allow holidays unless there is a significant reason to refuse.

Then I asked - how does the court order process work but the copy and paste function isn't working so well so if that is helpful, perhaps ask Chat GPT yourself? It sounds like the court WOULD grant it, but you should probably give yourself plenty of time to make it happen as ther are multiple steps.

Thanks @Sunat45degrees. Yeah I've now finally found the Scottish process for court which is unfortunately far more complex than the rest of the UK, and can now understand the cost of my solicitor!! I'm now wondering whether it would even get to court before she's 16 in two years 😬