Christmas arguments already 😒

[Spottingtwerps]

My husband and I have been separated for nearly 2 years. We have a 2.5 yo. The last 2 Christmases we've spent the day together with DD. It's been perfectly pleasant and neither of us missed out on anything.

Earlier this year, in Sept, he said he wanted to take DD to (another country) where his family lives, without me, just him. He said for Christmas. I was sort of ok with it but we had no discussions or conversations. He'd mentioned it but nothing else had been said. I wondered if he'd changed his mind.

Today, out of the blue, in a conversation about something else he just blurted out that he'd booked it and was going. He gave me the dates and said that was that, he was going and taking DD. It amounts to DD being away from me for a week incl Christmas eve and Christmas Day.

I am both furious and devastated. Furious that there was no discussion about exactly when, which dates, how long for, what did I want, did I have any plans for her, when was I off work etc etc. Nothing. Obviously devastated to be simply told when my DD will be away and I appear in his view to have no say.

He says his mother has not had a Christmas with her grand daughter so far but, I've only had two! DD is and will be my only child. MiL has multiple children, the number of grand children is in double figures, has some great grand children. Decades of Christmases with all.

We've had a massive row unsurprisingly (not in earshot of DD) and I've had to explicitly say, he does not have my consent to take DD abroad.

There's no agreement in place, no court order. We're separated, not divorced. Have had pretty amicable arrangements up until now, flexible towards one another and informal. I've invited him to every significant date/occasion/event in DDs life. No real problems up until now except occasional clash of diaries.

Am I wrong to feel so aggrieved? Isn't it perfectly reasonable to expect a discussion of when and how long he'd be away for?

Does a grandmother's desire to spend Christmas Day with a grand child trump a mother's (I'd go as far as to say need) to spend it with her only baby? Why am I sacrificing a Christmas for this woman and why do I have to compete?

@LemonTT that's mad, people go out of their way to split Christmas fairly, mornings here afternoons there, Xmas eve, xmas day, waking up in alternate houses each year... you don't just announce your small child is spending the whole of Christmas week away from her mother overseas! No fucking way. he doesn't get to railroad OP like that.

I wouldn't be letting an under 3 overseas without me, he wants that, he can fight for it in court.

@Ihatelittlefriendsusan taking his daughter overseas for a week without her mother's agreement is not a "tradition" he gets to establish anyway.

Fuck no.
for many reasons.
but if she’s too frail to travel without help then nope nope nope.

@NoahsTortoise I'd holiday in the Uk for the rest of my daughter's childhood before I gave in to this manipulative bullshit.

He didn’t do it behind your back

you admit he discussed in principle taking her away, to which you stated you were ok with it. He’s taken that as agreement and gone ahead and booked it

ok , he should have given dates etc but you state in your op that you says you were ok

you don’t get to dictate and more than he does, and your rights don’t trump his,

so you both need to work out a schedule where you each can take her away on your own

But it seems they did discuss it and OP ok'd it? Even though she didn't have dates etc.

I definitely would have checked dates before booking if I was the dad, but I can also see why he thought it had already been agreed from what OP has posted here.

If he wants to take her to see her, fine, that can be a separate discussion. She doesn’t need to go for a week at Christmas.
DD doesn’t need to spend Christmas week with a woman she’s never met and not see her mum at all.
When was the last time your ex spent Christmas with her, it doesn’t sound that important to him. He’s obviously being pressured to do this and he needs to push back. If it was somewhere nice maybe you all could have gone. Can she travel at all?

I actually kind of disagree with most it seems.
I think he went about it completely wrong, but granted that he's from the country they're going to, your daughter is half from there too.
I think she, and he, deserve to celebrate in her other culture too.

I'm married but not from here and we live in my husbands country and its very important to me that my son has every second Christmas in my home country with my family, and that would continue if we did separate especially as we'd still live in his country.
And every second Christmas with your child when separated isn't uncommon. That's what we had as kids. Much better and calmer than being ferried around mid day like I know some do I think.

OP - you need to divorce properly and agree formal child arrangements.

Your lives are separate now, and you can't rely on the current amicable status quo to continue indefinitely. As your separate lives would unfold - there will be more and more situations like this - and if you have to negotiate each and every one, it would not be easy.

Now - specifically to this Xmas - I think you are being unfair. He discussed it with you, and you agreed, in principle. I can understand why he thought he could book his trip - as you agreed...

Divorced people do often get to spend every other Xmas with the kids. It is especially true for families where relatives do not both live in the same area (or same country). At least - it seems a one-off for your Ex, and he isn't likely to want to travel for Xmas to his mom regularly.

In your place - I'd make my feelings clear, but not make it into a huge argument. And get on with writing up and agreeing child arrangements that prevent it from happening in the future.
Thing is - if it all becomes hostile and end up in court - he may ask for and get every other Xmas formalised - just to spite you. And it will not be considered unreasonable.

Your child is small. She won't really understand or care about the significance of this Xmas. It'll be tough for you, but you'll be doing it for the sake of amicability and future Xmases..

As RP OP will be easily be able to get this approved in court. A judge isn’t going to agree that it’s ok to take a 2 year old away from her mother for a week at Christmas especially when her mother has said no.

Most court ordered agreements I’ve seen are that the split is Xmas Eve or Boxing Day with a swap part way through Christmas Day. I’ve only seen the week on week off either Christmas or New Year once and it was where kids were older, the parents lived 2 hour/s apart, and the parents were in agreement.

This is a trip that can be taken any time of year, or like another poster suggested he can go and get his mum. If he had been clear about what he was proposing OP would have said no at the time.

That’s not certain. There are two parents and a judge will treat them equally. But in this case both parents are responsible for the lack of consistency and boundaries in their Co parenting arrangements. A judge is going to tell them to sort this out to avoid problems like this in the future. The courts shouldn’t be bunged up with cases like this.

The lack of communication and boundaries is something both parents need to own and put right for the sake of their child.

litigating over Christmas and holidays is not necessary.

Absolutely the fuck not. I wouldn't allow my partner to take our toddler abroad without me and we all live together! She's far too young to be going without you. He can arrange a separate trip and you'll accompany your child, who will need you in a strange place with people she doesn't know and a dad she hasn't lived with since she was 6 months old. You'll accompany her until she's old enough to verbalise that she wants to go on her own.

Hide her passport, keep it in your drawer at work if you must. I wouldn't put it past him to try and sneak it off.

Agree with PPs that you need to get the divorce finalised.

“and a dad she hasn't lived with since she was 6 months old”

There are no details in the OP about whether the usual split is 50:50 or something else.

If he had been clear about what he was proposing OP would have said no at the time.

I guess it depends how the first conversation went...if he said "I'm thinking of flying DD over to see my mum around Christmas, what do you think?" and then went and booked this after OP said OK, then that's not on.

But if he said "I want to take DD to see my mum for Christmas this year" and OP said OK, then I think it's reasonable for him to think it's confirmed and that she'd OK'd him having Christmas Day etc.

Fuck him.
Don't give the passport away, see a solicitor.
Cheeky bastard.
And I don't even have kids.
Men are the problem, always were.

Typical man hating thread
if op came on saying I want to take my daughter away for Christmas to see my mum who’s too ill to travel everyone would be saying, do it, stuff your ex, stuff dad he’s completely unreasonable

such utter double standards on here beyond belief

You said you were sort of OK with it when he first raised it, so he might have taken that as a greenlight.

She won't be quite 3 this Christmas and so it won't really mean much to her, but a big conflict (and potential emergency C/O if you do refuse him permission) could be a lot of stress for you and indirectly for her. I've never heard of a parent requesting an emergency C/O to take a child abroad and being refused as a holiday, especially to see family, is generally seen in the best interests of the child. They won't take the interests of you, as Mum who wants to spend Christmas with her child, into account.

If you let him take her, you can have her for the whole of Christmas Eve and Christmas Day next year, when she will understand it and be much more excited about it.

The spending the day together for you, ex and DD was never going to last very long anyway, eventually one of you will meet an new partner and want to make your own traditions.

Don't focus on the grandmother. You have no idea what she has said or what she thinks. Focus on the child and the father. Has she stayed away with him for a week before? Does she have a passport? Do you trust him to bring her back? What would you be thinking if it wasn't Christmas?

Oh, and never, ever again be in a position to be saying "He'd mentioned it but nothing else had been said. I wondered if he'd changed his mind." Nail him down at first mention. And it's absolutely fine for you to refuse permission for him to take her abroad.

He has said words to the effect of, he's stuck in the middle, so he's under pressure from someone somewhere. He has a very interfering sister (who is a huge factor in us not being together anymore after I found out the extent of her interference). The thing is, it shouldn't be a competition between a mother and a grandma as to who is most deserving of DDs presence.

DD has met her Grandma twice, once when we were still married and once post separation. I did indeed go with him as I didn't want DD to be away from me. She was v small. When he mentioned that he would like to go at Christmas, I floated the idea of me going too. I would rather eat a cup of cold sick than be with his family but I would do it to be with my DD.

It was first mentioned by him, in Sept, in a text! There was no discussion. He raised it, I replied. I did not agree to it. I acknowledged his desire to go but did not say yes or no. He has since said a couple of times, we need to talk about Christmas and him going away but has never come to me to talk about it. Absolutely no discussion, not a single word.

Even if it was in his mind, always Christmas eve and day, was it always bound to be a couple of days before and several afterwards? No. This is the discussion. Him taking her away would be a compromise and agreed between us. Not him taking it upon himself to book it, riding roughshod over me and my views. As I said, the last two Christmases have been shared and amicable. I never thought he'd do this.

Eventually it was always going to end up with you splitting Christmas one way or another.

Personally, I can't imagine anything worse than being a child shuttled between parents across Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, or being a parent having to interact with an ex on those days.

Making it so that one parent has the Christmas week is much less to-ing and fro-ing for the child and you can really enjoy the season without anxiety.

The chances are, she'll have a great time being made a big fuss of by all her family, you'll feel sad without her but get through the day, and next year you can make it all about you and her having the best Christmas.

I know we are going to share parenting for decades. It's why I have tried to ensure things have been amicable and good for this long. All the events and occasions I've hosted, arranged, paid for and invites him to and that he's come to. All the things I include him in. He is free to see his daughter pretty much any time he wants. I've done a lot of that for DD, so she doesn't miss out. Some of it was for me and some for him.

I have been more than accommodating and compromising and have gone out of my way.

You say don't expect reciprocity or tolerance now if I challenge him but what about him respecting me and the good arrangement we've had for two years. Does he get to ride roughshod over me and I should let him for fear of lack of reciprocity? Isn't what he is doing now a lack of reciprocity?

I would not dream of taking DD abroad without running all the dates, times, locations etc past him so he was fully aware and on board. I know where he's going, I know the dates now I've been "told" but no other details. Nothing was mentioned to me beforehand other than him expressing a wish to go.

I never said I was happy with it. I've made it clear for a long time, I am unhappy about her going without me at any time of the year while she is so young. He always knew I was unhappy about it. I didn't expressly say no nor did I say yes. All he did was text me expressing his wish to go. It wasn't a discussion. He has said a few times we need to talk about it but he has never come up with anything. Now suddenly, it's booked!

He does every other weekend and I do all weekdays, every week! All doctors, hospital, child development appts, nursery drop offs, pick ups and general arranging of DDs life. 50/50 it ain't!

Due to travel times, my work etc, none of which was considered or discussed by him, DD will be away from me from 22 to 29 December (providing no travel delays).

Even if I have DD next year for Christmas Eve and Day I wouldn't be depriving him of DD for over a week. I just wouldn't do that to him or her.

I would book a trip for you and DD over Christmas and tell him - see how he likes it.

It's still all about what the adults want. 'he's under pressure from someone somewhere', 'competition between a mother and a grandma', 'his desire to go', etc.

How would DD cope being away from you for a whole week in a strange place with people she doesn't know? Shouldn't that be the starting point?