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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Is this fair? Financial split and maintenance

144 replies

SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 09:30

My brother is separating from his partner, and has asked me what I think of his proposed financial settlement. He wants feedback from me before proposing it to her.

He: earns roughly £120k to £180k yearly through his company (he is sole employee and owner, and the company has no assets - it is just a vehicle for him to offer IT consultancy). He has roughly £180k in pensions. He has no savings or other assets.

She: earns roughly £30k (or she would do, if she switched to full time). She has roughly £20k in pensions. She has no savings or other assets.

Their house is worth maybe £425k, with a mortgage of around £350k. Mortgage payments are around £1,500 per month.

They have 3 children aged 16, 13 and 10.

He is proposing:

(1) That he has the children 2 or 3 nights per week (although he thinks the eldest one will just do what she wants);
(2) That his wife keeps the family home until the youngest is 18, but that he retains 40% equity, stays on the mortgage, and pays half of it. When the youngest is 18, the house is sold and the equity split so he gets 40%. He will pay 50% of any maintenance costs on the house during this time (even though he isn't living there).
(3) That he pays child maintenance assuming an income of £150k (the "average" he earns), and assuming he doesn't have the kids at all (even though he will) - this would work out to £2k per month.
(4) That she keeps her own pensions, and gets half of his.
(5) That he pays the private school fees for the children at private school, and university living costs to the children when they reach that age.

He has no idea whether this is fair. He is concerned that he is not offering his wife much better than 50:50 in terms of assets, but his offer to pay half the mortgage is "worth" around £60k over the next few years, although he would probably get some of that back due to capital being paid off the mortgage, and possible capital appreciation if house prices go up.

Very roughly, this would work out that he pays £4,000 towards his wife, mortgage on her house, and school fees, leaving him with £3,500 monthly (on an average year) for him. On a "bad" year (like 2020) he would have much less than this for himself.

Does the above sound reasonable? Does anyone have any suggestions to make it "fairer" for either of them?

Thank you!

OP posts:
DinoHat · 12/03/2021 15:45

If she has the potential to earn 30k FT that’s completely relevant. Her youngest is 10!

SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 15:45

@StellaDendrite

If they sell the house now, the kids will definitely need to share bedrooms, and live a bus ride from school rather than walking distance. He really wants to avoid that, particularly for a couple of years time when two of the three kids will be taking A levels and GCSEs respectively.

He hasn't had legal advice, but has talked to his mortgage advisor (who is a friend of his), and has been told he should be okay getting a mortgage in these circumstances, although saving a deposit might be a problem.

OP posts:
arethereanyleftatall · 12/03/2021 15:50

@DinoHat

If she has the potential to earn 30k FT that’s completely relevant. Her youngest is 10!
My youngest is 10. I work part time. Because come 3pm I'm ferrying them about to activities (pre covid). Either I do it or we'd pay a nanny. If the op /her brother wants to use the exes full time wage; then you here needs to be childcare fees included for 3-6pm daily plus all school holidays.
SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 15:50

@arethereanyleftatall

I didn't mislead on the figures at all, I was crystal clear:

"She: earns roughly £30k (or she would do, if she switched to full time)."

From the threads I've seen perusing Mumsnet, it looks like mothers are generally expected to maximise their earnings by going full time once their children are at secondary school - which at 10 is not far off.

That is why I put in the full time salary, because in the long one it will be the most relevant one to use.

If I'm wrong about this, that would be useful to know too.

OP posts:
arethereanyleftatall · 12/03/2021 15:51

@DinoHat

If she has the potential to earn 30k FT that’s completely relevant. Her youngest is 10!
And also - you could say that about anyone. It doesn't matter that you're unemployed - you could potentially earn £30k. I can promise you - it's your actual salary that counts, not your potential salary.
SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 15:52

@arethereanyleftatall

Besides, I haven't used her wage at all in any of the calculations (although other posters have) - I simply put it in to emphasise the disparity of incomes. As far as I'm aware the CMS doesn't take it into account either?

OP posts:
arethereanyleftatall · 12/03/2021 15:54

[quote SweetestTidings]@arethereanyleftatall

I didn't mislead on the figures at all, I was crystal clear:

"She: earns roughly £30k (or she would do, if she switched to full time)."

From the threads I've seen perusing Mumsnet, it looks like mothers are generally expected to maximise their earnings by going full time once their children are at secondary school - which at 10 is not far off.

That is why I put in the full time salary, because in the long one it will be the most relevant one to use.

If I'm wrong about this, that would be useful to know too.[/quote]
In my experience, others might be different, yes, you're wrong. I've just been through it. They took my actual salary. Ex has to pay a higher rate of spousal maintenance until my littlest is 14, then it starts to slide away.

SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 15:57

@arethereanyleftatall

Ok, that's useful to know - thanks.

Some of the other posters are suggesting my brother's proposal won't leave him enough money. Given that you actually did even better than this, how has it been for your ex, if you don't mind me asking - has he managed okay on what is left?

OP posts:
DinoHat · 12/03/2021 15:57

Not if you’re working PT to accommodate childcare and that’s a reasonable expectation of your FT equivalent. Most people have a good grasp of their sector and whether they’re likely to be able to work FT.

arethereanyleftatall · 12/03/2021 15:57

[quote SweetestTidings]@arethereanyleftatall

Besides, I haven't used her wage at all in any of the calculations (although other posters have) - I simply put it in to emphasise the disparity of incomes. As far as I'm aware the CMS doesn't take it into account either?[/quote]
Cms doesn't, but when/if they work out the spousal maintenance, then it does.

Yorkshirehillbilly · 12/03/2021 15:57

If she works PT & has no savings she will also get UC. Need to put her earnings through a benefit calculator. She will probably get £600+ from benefits a month on top of any maintenance and her income. In his shoes I would pay all the mortgage, house insurance and school fees direct and whatever else he thinks is fair to maintain the house (I agree she would struggle to do this and in his interests) and kids (eg is she buying all the clothes, school trips, devices etc). He should be generous but not unrealistic and better to commit to something he can stick to plus he can always give any spare money to the kids direct. Its the one off expenses like a laptop for uni or a school trip that it can be hard to budget for as a single parent on a modest income. I dont think kids care that much about a big house personally. He can also ask for the property to be sold if she moves a new partner in. But I agree its rarely a good idea for an ex wife to stay in a big house with a large mortgage and agree to a deferred sale as they rarely end up with enough to buy something decent at the end. Usually women are better getting themselves as quickly as possible into the situation where they can pay their own mortgage and keep 100% of the equity down the line.

Shadowboy · 12/03/2021 15:57

I think it’s too much. For me the half of his pension is what’s gone too far. I assume she could work full time not that the kids are old enough. She can build up a pension of her own AND £2k in maintenance would be more than enough when kids fees are fully paid. The income on £30k is about £1.8k per month so she would be ‘taking home’ just shy of £4K! That’s more than needed when she will only have the kids 4 days per week. She could save some towards her own deposit or pension?

DinoHat · 12/03/2021 15:58

Those expenses are going to be short lived with an 10 year old.

arethereanyleftatall · 12/03/2021 16:00

[quote SweetestTidings]@arethereanyleftatall

Ok, that's useful to know - thanks.

Some of the other posters are suggesting my brother's proposal won't leave him enough money. Given that you actually did even better than this, how has it been for your ex, if you don't mind me asking - has he managed okay on what is left?[/quote]
Don't know yet - can't get our blooming house sold because of covid! Keeps falling through!
But, yes, the mediator took all the figures, including what our respective household costs will be post split, to make sure we could both afford our plan.

Lochmorlich · 12/03/2021 16:02

He needs legal advice as he doesn't know what may change.
My db was in a similar position but he had everything done legally and ex got 1/3 of pension, not half.

dworky · 12/03/2021 16:03

Unreasonable for selling the children's home and uprooting them while young. Decent parents do everything they can to avoid that & with such a fortunate financial position there is simply no need.

SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 16:05

@arethereanyleftatall

Oh no! Good luck with selling it.

OP posts:
SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 16:08

@dworky

I don't quite follow - do you mean it is unreasonable to discontinue the proposed arrangement when the youngest attends university? And that it should last longer?

OP posts:
arethereanyleftatall · 12/03/2021 16:08

One more thing - when our mediator did it, because we had children are under 16 - it was worked out on a 'needs' basis as opposed to what is 'fair'.
Ie as the primary care giver, what did I 'need' to be able to give the children the same life they were used to. Then what did ex need to be able to live off.

Coffeeandcocopops · 12/03/2021 16:10

I wouldn’t accept the house situation:-

  • what happens if mum meets someone can she move them in?
  • What happens if your brothers financial situation changes and he can’t afford to pay 50% of the mortgage.
  • does he have savings?
  • I personally would prefer to sell the house and buy my own place. Take out the longest possible mortgage. My building society allowed me to use child mtnce from ex as income.
  • I wouldn’t like the vulnerability of being kicked out of my home when youngest reaches 18. My 18 year old is still dependent on me as his salary doesn’t cover rent etc. Where would the kids go when they come home from uni?

To me he is getting a safe investment in the family home with future profits whilst the mum has instability.

Coffeeandcocopops · 12/03/2021 16:11

My ex as I was primary carer gave me more than 60% equity too.

SwedishK · 12/03/2021 16:12

I would question if can really afford this. If so, why does he not have any savings? Presumably it will be more expensive for him to pay for 1.5 homes, but he can't save now whilst he is paying for less than one.

It sounds like a really generous deal, but there is no meaning in over-promising. It will just lead to disappointment.

SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 16:14

@Coffeeandcocopops

No, neither of them have any savings.

I guess if child maintenance can be taken into account, she might be able to afford a big enough place to house the children on her own - but it surprises me that a mortgage company would take that into account because doesn't child maintenance usually end when the children reach 18 - long before the mortgage comes to an end?

OP posts:
Coffeeandcocopops · 12/03/2021 16:16

My mortgage company were interested in how I would pay for the mortgage now. They didn’t take into consideration that the CM would go at 18. That was a long time away at the time.

FullofCurryandparatha · 12/03/2021 16:17

All of the "what ifs" about the future are nonsense. If they make an agreement amongst themselves, it can be changed at any time if he earns less, or she wants to remarry etc.
Trying to get him to provide a lot less than he can afford to now on the basis of things that may or may not happen is ridiculous. "Don't pay properly for your kids now in case you can't in 5 years" is a joke.

And no, she can't get a mortgage based on maintenance!