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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Is this fair? Financial split and maintenance

144 replies

SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 09:30

My brother is separating from his partner, and has asked me what I think of his proposed financial settlement. He wants feedback from me before proposing it to her.

He: earns roughly £120k to £180k yearly through his company (he is sole employee and owner, and the company has no assets - it is just a vehicle for him to offer IT consultancy). He has roughly £180k in pensions. He has no savings or other assets.

She: earns roughly £30k (or she would do, if she switched to full time). She has roughly £20k in pensions. She has no savings or other assets.

Their house is worth maybe £425k, with a mortgage of around £350k. Mortgage payments are around £1,500 per month.

They have 3 children aged 16, 13 and 10.

He is proposing:

(1) That he has the children 2 or 3 nights per week (although he thinks the eldest one will just do what she wants);
(2) That his wife keeps the family home until the youngest is 18, but that he retains 40% equity, stays on the mortgage, and pays half of it. When the youngest is 18, the house is sold and the equity split so he gets 40%. He will pay 50% of any maintenance costs on the house during this time (even though he isn't living there).
(3) That he pays child maintenance assuming an income of £150k (the "average" he earns), and assuming he doesn't have the kids at all (even though he will) - this would work out to £2k per month.
(4) That she keeps her own pensions, and gets half of his.
(5) That he pays the private school fees for the children at private school, and university living costs to the children when they reach that age.

He has no idea whether this is fair. He is concerned that he is not offering his wife much better than 50:50 in terms of assets, but his offer to pay half the mortgage is "worth" around £60k over the next few years, although he would probably get some of that back due to capital being paid off the mortgage, and possible capital appreciation if house prices go up.

Very roughly, this would work out that he pays £4,000 towards his wife, mortgage on her house, and school fees, leaving him with £3,500 monthly (on an average year) for him. On a "bad" year (like 2020) he would have much less than this for himself.

Does the above sound reasonable? Does anyone have any suggestions to make it "fairer" for either of them?

Thank you!

OP posts:
arethereanyleftatall · 12/03/2021 14:58

I'm in a similar situation (I'm the ex wife) and I got more than he is offering. We went through mediation as we just a wanted a fair split. I got spousal maintenance as well of £1k per month till The youngest is 18. No school fees though. If she came on here, she'd be told to get legal advice.
You can't use her full time wage, you use the wage she gets. 3 kids, youngest being ten still need a fair bit of input. If he's saying two/three days a week is he intending on having them 2/3 days per week throughout all school holidays too? And the times they're ill? It's about 20 weeks of the year.

SleepingStandingUp · 12/03/2021 14:58

Hang on I forgot school fees from his. How can he afford what he's offering on 120k income before tax? You can't assume ATM it's going to magically get better

Oblomov21 · 12/03/2021 15:00

Far too generous. I can't see how this is sensible.

DinoHat · 12/03/2021 15:00

[quote SweetestTidings]@DinoHat

I don't quite follow what you mean. Do you mean that they should sell the house now and divide the equity (there is only £75k ish, and stamp duty, estate agents fees and other moving costs would have to come out of that)? With a salary of £30k, I don't suppose she'd be able to get a house worth more than £200k at most, which where they live would either get you 3 bedrooms in a rough bit, or 2 in a nice bit.

Or do you mean that she should get more than the proposed 60% of equity when the children move out? And if so, that wouldn't really be possible unless he pays the £750 monthly to make her mortgage costs affordable.[/quote]
Either or, you can normally borrow 4-4.5x your earnings. So whatever that budget allows. Alternatively he could let her keep the house and retain an agreed percentage of the equity for her to release to him when the last child leaves education.

Continuing to pay for a house he isn’t living in is a bit of a stretch - especially with reference to ongoing maintenance.

Also a pensions attachment at their ages seems excessive.

He ought to consult a lawyer.

Can I ask why you’re so invested OP?

SleepingStandingUp · 12/03/2021 15:02

@SleepingStandingUp

Hang on I forgot school fees from his. How can he afford what he's offering on 120k income before tax? You can't assume ATM it's going to magically get better
Ignore, I double counted school fees.

@arethereanyleftatall he's being home 6k basic, giving her 4 plus mortgage on their house and his own so he's paying out 5.5k before bills. How can he give her more?

arethereanyleftatall · 12/03/2021 15:03

Ah - sorry, I missed that he's paying child maintenance as if he doesn't have them.

So, I'll change - yes, this is about fair.

But - it's often needs basis - can she afford to pay £750 mortgage plus all the bills on her own, on the money she has coming in?

SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 15:03

@SleepingStandingUp

He's under the impression that the income disparity will mean that she should get more than 50% of everything, since his higher income would enable him to claw back the difference over time.

He can't afford it with school fees on £120k, but that would be a bad year (that's what he made last year due to Covid getting in the way). I think if he had a bad year he would need to renegotiate.

OP posts:
foxhat · 12/03/2021 15:03

As far as I can understand his ex-wife went part time 16 years ago in order to look after their children. He plans to still leave her with the bulk of the child-caring responsibility which although very different as teens is still very important. The amount offered looks generous but we don't know whether ex-wife really cares about private school or whether that's your brother's agenda so if we leave that out of the equation he is offered £2750 at the moment, maybe for the next 8 years or maybe to reduce as the kids leave home? £1500 if this would go on the mortgage, 40% of which is for the long-term benefit of your brother. This leave £1250 plus her income for the ex-wife to pay bills and support the kids 5/7 of the time. That seems entirely do-able. However, in 8 years she gets 60% of the equity in the house. Currently that would be 45k. In 8 years it would be bigger if the mortgage is a repayment mortgage. How much more? Maybe as much as 100k? But she would then get nothing else at all. I don't think that's generous tbh and I think he should pay spousal maintenance on an on-going basis. 18 is also young to sell the home. Ex-wife may not be able to buy a place large enough for current 10 year old to also stay in if they go to uni and come home in the holidays. 21 would be more appropriate.

SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 15:05

@DinoHat

I'm invested because he's my big brother!

And he's a genius with a computer and completely hopeless with common sense.

OP posts:
DinoHat · 12/03/2021 15:07

The numbers don’t add up - he’ll be left with a pittance. If they’re to spilt perhaps they need to review their lifestyle. Not least private school.

PennyRoyal · 12/03/2021 15:08

Very generous offer.
Don't forget that Uni can be attended at any age, gap years may be taken, courses extended so caveats need to be in place.

He needs professional advise before putting his cards on the table.

NeedToGetOuttaHere · 12/03/2021 15:10

Has he thought about if the wife gets remarried?

SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 15:11

@foxhat

It's actually the wife that is keen on the private school. My brother isn't fussed about it, but now they are in the school he doesn't want to disrupt their education, particularly after the impact of Covid on kid's educations over the past 12 months.

With the £750 monthly, if we work with your 8 year figure, that will be £72,000. I doubt he would get that much back from the "investment" with only a 40% equity stake, even if the capital appreciation was pretty high. However, maybe the 40% is too high?

OP posts:
arethereanyleftatall · 12/03/2021 15:11

As does she need advice. With this much disparity, it can only be done through professionals.

arethereanyleftatall · 12/03/2021 15:12

What it is her actual wage op? Not what she could get.

DinoHat · 12/03/2021 15:13

@PennyRoyal

Very generous offer. Don't forget that Uni can be attended at any age, gap years may be taken, courses extended so caveats need to be in place.

He needs professional advise before putting his cards on the table.

Yes not least because he might agree all this and then find he’s obliged in some other capacity - ie CMS.
dewisant2020 · 12/03/2021 15:23

The numbers don't add up, far to generous and more than likely unsubstantial in the long term.
I would really be encouraging your brother to seek legal advice and only offer what he can afford whilst maintaining he's own life now he's single

Watchitgrow · 12/03/2021 15:23

The part that stands out to me is him paying 50% of house maintenance. How does that work? He has to pay half of new carpets when she feels it’s needed? What if he thinks the old ones are fine? What if she doesn’t get organised cleaning the gutters and a big bill arrives when water ingress no one noticed causes damp? That sort of thing isn’t going to work long-term.

What if she moves her new boyfriend into the house? Is he happy to pay mortgage /maintenance caused by wear and tear by him and say 3 step kids ? Of course I’m sure he thinks that’d never happen but it can.

What if 2/3 of his kids are living at home when it comes to sale time? Is he going to want to enforce that then? What if she doesn’t want to move in eight years and makes his life a misery blocking the sale.

What if he wants to buy his own place in a few years but can’t because he’s still on his old mortgage?

I would also consider if it’s worth having the kids in private school but that’s tricky when they’re already there and would be upset to leave.

I would have him speak to an advisor.

AfterEightsBeforeEight · 12/03/2021 15:26

This is blatantly not "OPs brother" with this ridiculously generous proposal.

DinoHat · 12/03/2021 15:31

@AfterEightsBeforeEight

This is blatantly not "OPs brother" with this ridiculously generous proposal.
The ex trying to ascertain if she’s being way off the mark???
NeedToGetOuttaHere · 12/03/2021 15:33

I believe the OP, I’d look out for my DB and nieces and nephews.

SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 15:35

@arethereanyleftatall

I think she earns just under £20k, working part time hours.

OP posts:
SweetestTidings · 12/03/2021 15:37

@Watchitgrow

Those are good points. I think he felt he should bear some responsibility for the state of the property if he later benefits from some of the equity, but maybe that risks arguments over what that covers.

OP posts:
StellaDendrite · 12/03/2021 15:40

Don't forget that Uni can be attended at any age, gap years may be taken, courses extended so caveats need to be in place

I agree with this.

I think he needs proper legal advise. It looks too generous. I’d be tempted to sell the house now and move the Mum and kids somewhere more reasonable that she wouldn’t have to move out of later. Some kids end up staying for years and years. I think it would be better to have things more settled sooner rather than waiting. Otherwise he could still be having to deal with selling the house in 15 or more years.
Him being on the mortgage might prevent him from buying somewhere else.

arethereanyleftatall · 12/03/2021 15:43

[quote SweetestTidings]@arethereanyleftatall

I think she earns just under £20k, working part time hours.[/quote]
Ok. So she doesn't earn 'roughly £30k'. She earns £20k. If when your brother goes for advice/tries to put deals on the table; using made up figures won't do him any favours.