How do you talk relatives out of ritual circumcision of a child?

[UrbanDad]

A (non=-ewish) female friend of mine is married to a quite nice jewish DH. They have just had a baby boy and DH's parents and aunts/uncles are putting pressure on him to have their DS circumcised. DH is equivocal but my friend is dead set against it. I think it's barbaric - how would you react to a member of your family putting pressure on you to mutilate your child's genitalia? No apologies - it's child abuse pure and simple and should be criminalised. Religion is no excuse for this mediaeval, unenlightened superstitious crap.

Has anyone got any experience of talking moronic religious extremist relatives out of this stupidity? (Apologists for/proponents of/justificants of ritual circumcision please don't even bother responding to this post.)

Message withdrawn

Bloss - I've seen loads done. My 2 ds's were done . Neither cried much - more crying when nappy taken off.

This debate brings back a lot of memories actually. My first every post on MN about 6 years agon was on such a thread. Although the thread was largely anti like this one it was a bit more balanced and wiht the antis more ready to listen to other views and at least repsct them. I think this thread reflects a bit how mn has become of late - more threatening, harsh and less of a plesaant place to be . Is jimjams still around as I frsit met her on teh other thread 6 yrs ago and she impressed me greatly with her respect for my right to circumcise even though she did not agree with the practice itself. That was my intro to MN having never been on internet chat sites . It is a shame that so much of that tolerance and open mindedness appears to ahve been lost....

Surely the easy answer for the OP is that the child is not Jewish (non Jewish mother) and so there is no real argument for circ on the basis of ritual or religion?

bubbaluv - completely agree that no need for religious reasons for child to have circumcision. In fact a mohel would not perform one any way!!!

You will find that people of european heritage are the only ones that dont routinely circumcise. I am christian black british of african heritag and it is something that we just know has to be done, the same for muslim and jewish faith people. there was a documentary recently saying americans normally have it done as well. my view is that as long as it is done when they are babies there is nothing wrong with it. every one i know that has had it done is not distressed about it or thinks its a problem as an adult. on the contrary, if you are from a culture where most people have had it done it causes problems if you havent. my sister in law is white british and she thinks its much better . i think you have to be respectful of other peoples religions and views. obviously some people have it done for medical even cosmetic reasons but if you are going to get it done its better when they are babies.

btw lisalisa, rabbis make alot of money from circumcisions of non jewish boys so i dont know where you got that idea from.If you look into it you will find that the muslim, jewish and some christian faiths say that a child should be circumcised. op why dont you ask people that have been circumcised how they feel about it and base your decisions on that.

needsomesunshine - what rubbish! A mohel first asks if the child is halachically jewish and if not, declines. Our mohel did not take any money for the circumcision at all. It is a mitzvah from the Torah ( a commandment which is a good thing to carry out is the translatin of "mitzvah") and as such many many mohels will not charge. There is one very famous mohel in N16 who walks miles to circumcise on jewish holidays when teh car cannot be used. His longest walk - from N16 to NW11 just to fulfill the mitzvah. And for no money.

I do not know about other types of circumcision providers. I can only comment on orthodox providers. And they may charge money if it is their only form of income as that is wholly permitted. The point is that most of them do not charge.

lisalisa-im glad that you are passionate about this debate but i am not speaking rubbish. i have 4 boys and three of them were circumcised by an orthodox. the last one by a community nurse. whether you believe it or not that is a fact.

needsomesunshine, Until recently (last 20 years I would guess) it was the cultural norm in Australia. That has completely changed there though. I see no reason why a custom like this would be continued just for no good reason. Obviously in Aus, there was a huge number of circ'd Dads who chose not to circ their sons as they are now better informed.

It is hard to argue against a decision based on faith becuse the very nature of the adherance to a religion requires you to suspend logical/mortal decision making and place your trust in the decisions handed to you by a higher power. It's the whole point of faith. Cultural norms, however, can, should and are examined and questioned over time and changes occur. So instead of asking circ'd men if they have a problem with it, maybe we should ask them for logical reasons why an outdated custom should be continued.

Lisalisa - I am sad that you sad at the thread. Genuinely.

I do question circumcision for cleanliness and cultural reasons - I just don't get it. I think it is wrong.

But I wouldn't argue vociferously against circumcision where it is required for religious reasons. I still don;t understand it, but then I don't really get religion. I have no religious faith, so of course cannot truly understand the practice.

I suppose my point is that if someone says they are doing because their religion specifically requires it, then that is their faith requirement. But a lot of the posts on here have referred to cleanliness, Anna referred to sexual pleasure, and others have mentioned aesthetics. And I vehemently disagree with that standpoint when it comes to infant circumcision where the child has no ability to consent.

Bubbaluv put it much better than me.

but bubbaluv we should also show respect for other peoples cultures. if you mean outdated you are surely not using modern, as example, british culture as an example of how wonderful modern culture is. the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in europe, 50% of households led by single parents, less family time due to sunday working, the credit crunch. im glad ive got my faith and culture and that i am bringing up my children in a christian faith. i think more people should follow a religion and the positive guidance that it sets out.
none of my family or friends have been harmed by circumcision and that is my basis for debate.

needsomesunshine, modern British culture has it's problems, but I bet there are significant;y fewer teenage pregs now than there were a couple of hundred years ago - because we have greater knowledge and understanding and society has changed. There a probably fewer single parents as well.
I'm simply saying that cultural norms need to be examined and not just accepted as how it's always been or they cannot be justified and therefore do not demand the respect of either the people within that culture or those viewing it from the outside.
Otherwise, your argument could be used to justify female circ' and surely you wouldn't say that's ok becuase it's a cultural thing?

Pooka - I hav been saddened by a lot on MN recently and i am the type, having been here so many years, that usually at the type of threads like "Isn't MN horrible place today?" etc. I usually think " well if its so horrible then go elesehwere etc". Having been here 6 years however it is a biggish part of my life now and a place where I have always felt free to post what I need and say what i want safe in the knowledge that everything is

1 anonymous

2 debated fairly and no grudges held/personal attacks made.

In last month or so have not felt like that at all.

I have felt insiduous undercurrents here which make me uncomfortable. I hate to put words in lulumama's mouth but I get the feeling its what she felt on this thread too but couldn't put her finger on. It's what crept into the Gaza threads too - more of an attack rahter than reasoned debate.

maybe that is why lulumama expressed her wish to get back to the more cosy midwifery threads but having read widely around MN in last few days also searching for a more affable and companionable place to me I rather doubt she will find sanctuary anywhere here at the moment.

Or for the MN of 6 years ago or even 6 months ago....... [ as a case in point we had some intense debates about israel into lebanon in 2006 but it never reached the point it has now]. things are changing here.....

lisa, i often think twice or even three or four times about posting my religious background here after the last few weeks. but i was moved to comment by the aggressive nature of the OP and the disgusting language used. I have also removed my profile for the time being, as felt too accesible. Reading some more of the extreme views here recently, I have felt less safe and secure, not that i thikn particualry I am important enough to be singled out, but I do feel i have to be more careful.

lulumama .

I agree sadly , again, about your profile. Having stuck my neck out on the GAza threads I am glad I have no profile posted and certainly no pics of me or my kids. I think you have to be extremely careful nowadays about this type of thing as the climate has chnaged palpably and for worst. In last month alone over 154 anti semitic attacks taken place in my area alone .

I watched your comments on the OP and could read the shock and distaste coming through your posts. Sometimes I think it isn't worth posting in response and sometimes I think its so very necessary. Good on you for taking up this particular cudgle.

Nobody should have to do that Lulu

Every culture contains elements I disapprove of including my own

I've nothing against Jewish people whatsoever and it's shocking to think people are attacked.

I didn't read the Gaza threads apart from the Rev situation but I gather there was some nastiness.

Sorry you are being made to feel anxious.

thank you both.

lisa, i know there is heightened security in the synagogues and schools in the north west too. it is scary, because the situation in the middle east does lead to an increase in anti semitic attacks. it happens every time. that is reality.

MN might well be a more measured place, but you don't know who else reads/lurks/googles. who might not be so measured.

there might well be things we all disapprove of iwthin all religions, but hopefully they would be broached in less insulting terms. i appreciatre circumcision is bound to raise high feelings, but there are ways of approaching the issue without being base and insulting.

I think you were really brave to post here Lulumama. Thank you for not just sitting back in the face of such aggression.

In my defense I have actually been on the previous gaza threads, expressing my distaste a at the nasty undercurrent of anti-semitism that seems to be prevalent at the moment. And to query what the anti-israel posters would like israel to do in the face of the concerted and prolonged terrorist attacks against them.

But to me that is a different issue IYSWIM - I'm still anti-circumcision for cosmetic or cultural grounds. And I have agreed that the OP was unnecessarily vitriolic and inflammatory (while disagreeing that it is racist).

thanks , there were others who were voicing similar opinions.

shame you has to be brave in this century to voice your religious persepective/ beliefs

pooka, it is the undercurrent that worries me. especially people who are not posting, but simply lurking.

Agreed. Unfortunately I don't think your fears are unfounded. at the moment. Amazing that there can be a thousand years of progress and still nothing really changes.

quite

anyhoo, i was leaving this thread about 2 days ago !!

Yes Pooka - it is a different issue. No-one is suggesting you shouldn't post on circ if you disagree with it - or Gaza for that matter - and tbh neither lulu nor I have ever suggested that . What we are disucssing here is something else entirely that has invaded MN.